Protecting Workers’ Health: Key Insights from Troy Winters on Occupational Disease and Safety

Perley sits down with Troy Winters, National Health & Safety Coordinator for CUPE, to explore the evolving landscape of occupational health in Canada. Troy discusses the issues most affecting workers today—from workplace violence and psychological health, to infectious disease preparedness, asbestos exposure, and emerging risks like aircraft fume events.  He also shares what he’s learned through years of involvement in CSA and ISO standards development.

Transcript

Perley Brewer   0:06

Welcome to today's podcast. My name is Pearly Brewer and I will be your host. Today's podcast guest is Troy Winters, and our topic is occupational health. Welcome, Troy.

Troy Winters   0:20
You're having me?

Perley Brewer   0:21
When discussing the topic of occupational health and safety, it seems that most of the discussions seem to end on the safety aspect, not necessarily on the occupational health aspect. So we decided we'd I wanted to spend today's podcast.
Talking about occupational health related to issues and topics. So so Troy, let's start with getting you to tell us about your background in occupational health.

Troy Winters   0:47
Sure. Well, again, thanks for having me. I'm, I'm the National Health and safety coordinator for the Canadian Union of Public Employees. And and that, you know that that's a it's a pretty significant you know group of folks that we have across a very you know we have we have 800,000 people in the membership now across.
Pretty much all of the sectors of the Canadian economy, health care and child care and energy and education and libraries and a lot of folks in the municipal and Social service and even aviation. And of course, it's also Pan Canadian. So it really does give us the kind of a very high level overview of all of the different types.
Of way that workers get sick because of work across all of the sectors. Now in my role, I kinda have three roles, so I do a lot of frontline advocacy work, so I'll get calls directly from locals who are looking for assistance.
I got an e-mail just yesterday, say hey, we got this weird skin and rash outbreak thing happening. Like, what do we do? So I do a lot of frontline stuff, but we also do a lot of policies and standards development and hopefully we'll have a chance to talk a bit about that.
But really, I practice from a worker lens, right? So I'm here to help workers both diagnose, figure out what's going on, figure out how to prevent things from continuing, and of course preventing them from happening in the 1st place. So that's kind of where I.
I exist in the in the health and safety world and and actually we've we've never really, at least you know, in my shop, we've never really separated out the idea of occupational health from Occupational Safety. You know, if you're if you're not healthy, if work is making you sick.
That's really no different than work is making you injured. You know it's it's still a, it's still a work related thing. So kind of from our our mind it's one of those things we've always worked on. It's always been top of mind, always been something we've always wanted to to make sure that we put just as a high level. So I'm I'm I'm really pleased to to be able to have a chance to to talk a bit about this today.

Perley Brewer   2:38
Hmm.

Troy Winters   2:55
Yeah.

Perley Brewer   2:56
So what would be some of the hot issues that you would get calls on any any topics that sort of stand out that seem to to to get calls on repetitive over and over?

Troy Winters   3:06
Yeah, the the big, the big call and this has been honestly, I've I've been doing this job since O 9 and it continues to be violence in the workplace. Now, obviously violence has a huge physical impact and and and injury impact, but it's really we can't, we can't overestimate the impact it has on on creating illness you know and and the.
Psychological health and safety aspect, which is the other thing that's really been increased awareness, the increased awareness amongst the membership in the way that psychological impacts have on your health and whether it's from violence, whether it's from harassment or any of the other factors, psychological health and safety.
Factors that that those are those are the big things that have have been you know really.
Last three years, absolutely top the psychological health and safety in the violence. But of course violence has been a a problem for for a very long time.
Also, you know the we're not, we're not. We're not getting calls saying you know climate change is a problem, but we're getting a lot of new calls from new things because of the impacts of climate change. So you know we we had you know the floods.
The the wildfires over the summer were a big a big issue, especially for our outdoor workers and and having to inhale the smoke and so a lot of things that are linking back to to climate change and and the way that our our Members are experiencing the work.
And we don't get as many calls right now about infectious disease, but obviously that that remains top of top of mind for us and my team. We're always monitoring, seeing what's out there. Rather it's bird flu rather it's Zika like we're we're we're always monitoring to see kind of where where those are and how that's impacting the.
How it potentially could be impacting the the Members you know we're seeing, we're seeing you know increases in the measles and and whooping cough and you know all these all these illnesses we thought we kind of had had put behind us are are coming back. So there's there's lots of lots of conversation about that not not as many I would say direct calls but we're certainly monitoring those types of concerns.
Yeah.

Perley Brewer   5:13
Now you're on a number of CSA standards committees. Some of the topics that I know of sort of ahead of presence after the last few years. Obviously one of the big ones have been covered and I was curious, you know you you've said on a number of these committees and.
It's a what's a feeling you have as to how people felt sort of come the end of COVID as to how, how did we do as far as Canada goes in dealing with COVID?

Troy Winters   5:40
So yeah, that's that's that's almost two questions. I think you know, As for how we dealt with COVID, I mean that's a that's a really complex question because I think overall.
You know, Canada did a lot of things well, but they certainly did a lot of things quite terribly like the the initial reactions to COVID where, you know, we were getting into these really confusing to me. They were confusing arguments about whether or not it was an aerosol, whether or not it was airborne.
The only thing we knew then we could tell from all of our experience in the field was you breathe this thing in. You got sick and that means get them a respirator. Now, obviously, we didn't have the the stockpiles because of again, poor, poor choices in in, in what the government had done with the stockpiles.
Of of respiratory protection. So we we get into this weird place where I'm not sure if the government couldn't make the right recommendation because they didn't have the the materials to to provide us if they had said, yeah, we need respiratory protection, but but we don't have respiratory protection. I don't know if that was the problem or if we got into this weird.
It felt like in a lot of jurisdictions because again, we have purview over kind of all of the jurisdictions. We moved into a public health mentality in the workplace and of course, occupational health and safety laws aren't the same as public health, right, occupational health and safety, says employer shall prevent injuries and illness and.
The illness being what we're talking about today, so how do you prevent illness? You protect people from exposure to an infectious disease, and that wasn't happening. And again, we are following this weird public health model of, well, we know a certain amount of people are going to get ill or whatever.
That shouldn't be how the health and safety process works, so that was where a lot of our activism are pushing. Unfortunately, having to get Members to use their right to refuse to do work until they were given the respiratory protection that we knew that they needed, and then getting into weird conversations about whether a surgical mask.
Was actually respiratory protection. Things that I never would have thought we would even be discussing or debating there. We were reusing single use respirators and talking about how to clean them and.

Perley Brewer   7:51
Mm-hmm.

Troy Winters   8:04
Things I never thought when I first got hired, I would have to actually write a memo out to the staff to say okay if we have to clean these masks like this is our kind of minimum acceptable performance expectations around that.
Never would have thought we'd have to do stuff like that. So you know, which brings us to some of the stuff we've since done better because, you know, I don't sit on the the standards for the respirators, but I sit on the strategic steering Committee, so I'm aware of the work they've done and and we have some, some great new Canadian based standards on.
Different types of respirators that we can use in healthcare that provide the same level of of protection the the N95 level of protection without being as as thick as a industrial respirator where you're you're worrying about having a lot of particles in the air that would, you know, clog a respirator up. Well, that's not how a healthcare setting is. So we we they were able to.
That actually have a new measurement for the ease of which the air can pass through the respirator and still provide that level of protection. So we have these standards now and we do have some Canadian manufacturers who could make these now do we have the capacity if, God forbid, the avian flu made the next?
Jump into pandemic level spread. Are we ready to go with a full stock in sitting in the warehouses? I don't think we probably are, but I think we do have.
The capacity, at least the technology and the standards in place that we would be able to ramp up and respond faster than we were able to with COVID. So that's again, that's all stuff that came out of the standards. I also had the opportunity to work internationally on.
With ISO I got the opportunity. I was actually the project lead for a new international standard on the management of infectious disease in the workplace, and that was kind of my first foray into the international standards development and it was a fascinating.
Fascinating time because we had, you know, there was, it was 12 to 30 countries depending on on which phone call you're on or which zoom call you were on during which meeting and and to hear how they were dealing with with COVID.
Even though it wasn't a COVID standard, it was a general infectious disease standard. But hearing hearing how they were dealing with COVID or what they were doing around different diseases and and the different occupational diseases that they have in in Europe and in in Asia and and in Africa like diseases we don't have here and how they.
Just, you know, Endemically take care of these things in a way that we don't even have to think about because we don't have these things. Was was a fascinating and and so that's ISO 45,000 and six for people who are interested in in the number. And it's it's really it's a it's a it's a standard that describes how you can implement.
Controls for infectious disease into 45,000 and one which is the occupational health and safety management standard. So it's not, it's not a stand alone standard, it's a it's a resource you can use if you if you have a health and safety management system how you can integrate the disease, infectious disease management into your into your program.
So.

Perley Brewer   11:20
Now you mentioned you mentioned infectious, excuse me infectious is eases. I know that rail regulators across Canada have been encouraging organizations to get ready for the next one. The next big one as they go.

Troy Winters   11:36
Mm-hmm.

Perley Brewer   11:37
Do you think organizations are really thinking about that or are they sort of sitting back saying, you know, that COVID was a one off? No, it's not something we need to sort of put a lot of time and effort into thinking about and and getting ready for it.

Troy Winters   11:52
It really, I think, depends on the sector. So I think we see in things like healthcare, we see some movement towards that. Again, I don't think there's enough. I know for you know again rather we're talking about healthcare rather we're talking about long term care with that you know what a what a you know a kind of a.
A failure of of of the one system, certainly I think long term care and and protecting our our elderly folks, I think that was a real problem and and you know in the new builds we're seeing drastic improvements like you know everyone getting their own room, increased ventilation. So in the new builds I feel.
They'll be, you know, much better off than than kind of the existing, but it really is that existing the, you know, the the million million billions of dollars it would take to upgrade all of the facilities rather it be all of the long term care homes, some of them having been built back in the in the in the 70s.
Where I grew up back, I grew up to small town Nova Scotia. They're building a new one now, thankfully, but that the one that's there, they built that in the late 70s, early 80s, it just they wouldn't even be able to upgrade it to the newest technologies of HVAC systems.
Umm.
So luckily again, they're building a new one. So they're thinking about it more. I think most other organizations that you know, if you're in the office, if you're in the manufacturing, I don't think they're giving it as as much thoughts and and that's why I would encourage folks to to take a look at the one, the, the 45,000 and and six standards.
Because what we do is is what we wanted to do was focus people's mind, just not on the of course, very important issue of workers getting sick.
And workers dying, of course. We want to absolutely prevent that. But what if it's an illness that just made people really sick but didn't actually, you know, kill people, you know, kind of late, late COVID instead of early COVID? That was really, that was killing a lot more people late COVID has made people really sick.
Beyond the very important worker factor, how many workers can your organization afford to lose before you stop operating, right, so that we wove that into the standard as well for that consideration? Like, do you have a plan for prevention just?
So that you can keep your own operations going. And I think there's probably a lot of rather it's manufacturing or just again non healthcare related facilities. I don't think they're giving it enough. I think they got real thick of talking about infectious disease with COVID and we're all just kinda.
Wrestling around, hoping that the next the next one doesn't come anytime soon.

Perley Brewer   14:42
So asbestos as a topic used to be one that we heard a lot about, is it still as big an issue now here in Canada as it was say, a decade ago? Are you hearing a lot about it?

Troy Winters   14:55
Compared to a decade ago, absolutely it is. And that's actually, you know, part of the problem.
I think a lot of people know asbestos is dangerous, asbestos is bad and a lot of people think asbestos has been like this thing that's been banned and illegal for for like decades and decades. But we just came up with the, you know, the export ban maybe 10 years ago.
And of course, there was a lot in the news about it and we haven't used asbestos in construction since the late 80s, early 90s. But there's a lot of buildings, a lot, especially for my membership, a lot of buildings, a lot of government buildings where there is a legacy asbestos in the walls. Rather it's insulation.
Whether it's in the vermiculites that you know there's, there's entire walls filled with vermiculites like a a popcorn like substance, that that came from the same place where asbestos came from. So there's, you know, it's contaminated with asbestos.

Perley Brewer   15:45
Mm-hmm.

Troy Winters   15:53
At least once per year. It's really sad at least once per year I get a call from a local that said, you know, we've been digging around in this crawl space and we drilling into this wall. We've been taking out and we just discovered it's all asbestos. You know, what do we do?
And it's it's, it's one of the saddest calls that we get because, you know, they've been exposed, they they, they've been working without protection for however long before somebody finally said, hey, you know, we should get this tested. I got we got two fresh cases in in British Columbia.
Just in the past three months, where dozens of of workers have been exposed to to asbestos. So I I think this this is going to be, you know the.
The continuing legacy of asbestos, unfortunately, until all those buildings are gone, we're gonna keep running into this cuz as much as obviously we're always pushing to hold them employers accountable. The one employer in BC literally had no idea that they even had asbestos in their in their building obviously they showed.
Would have tested. They should have known, but they didn't and legitimately was caught as off guard as we were now. I think there's a lot of places where there's a good reason to suspect it and we would wanna see stronger regulations around the testing and programs like in Saskatchewan where.
All of the public buildings in Saskatchewan are required to have an asbestos registry, like that's the type of stuff we need to see kind of across the country because until we do, we're gonna continue. I'm going to keep getting those at least one call a year where we get one or many workers that have been exposed.

Perley Brewer   17:36
Now here in Atlantic Canada, we hear a lot from the firefighters and their exposures that they've suffered through over the years. Are there any other occupations? You mentioned that that's not an area that that you have membership in. Are there any other occupations that you sense or you hear a lot from?
That are struggling with exposures to different types of chemicals and particulates and so on.

Troy Winters   18:05
Mm-hmm. So there's one that folks don't know a lot about, which is in our airline division. And we have most of the flight attendants that are unionized. Most of them belong to QP in our membership and very interesting group for me to work with. I've spent a lot of time.
With them and something that folks don't know a lot about, but we're actually gonna be launching a little bit of a campaign to try and raise awareness of the issue is called fume events and what happens. And this is kind of a fundamental.
Design flaw in in pretty much every airplane that's that's built these days.
A lot of people don't know that, you know, to make the air pressurized inside of the cabin. They they take some of the air that's come into the engines that you know, it comes into the engine, it gets pressurized and then it it bleeds some of that air off. And and that's what filters into the into the cabin.
If there's a failure in the mechanisms and and either the seal leaks or something, then sometimes oils or other chemicals from inside of the engine can get into that bleed air and there ends up being a bit of a kind of a weird sweaty sock smell or a wet dog. Smell it. Really, it's very dependent.
On the individual who smells it as to how it's how it's interpreted.
But we have a great deal of there's and there's a lot of supporting research about kind of the the neurotoxic impacts of those events on the, on the on, on the people, on the planes rather it's passengers or or flight attendants. And of course, you know flight attendants have.
The propensity to be exposed multiple times if this happens, especially if they fly similar routes on similar planes and then there's one particular plane that may have a particular malfunction that leads to this happening more. So we're gonna be trying to again launch a little campaign to make.
The government, more aware because we want to see there is filtering technologies that they could put into the systems that would capture the noxious fumes as they pass through the system. So we'd like to see those mandated, but essentially we'd like to eventually see.
That engine type phased out because the Boeing the Dreamliners Boeing gets a lot of slack sometimes, but they've produced a fantastic system on the Dreamliner. The 7-8 sevens, they don't use bleed air, they actually use some type of ran scoop on the front of the plane and collect the air through that system. So you don't have to worry about it at all.
On a 787, but literally every other plane that's been built, that's the system they use. So you know, to some, some degree there is a.
You know, again, it's not super common, you know, estimates range like 1 to 3% of of of flights where this can happen. But it's again when you're the when you're a flight attendant and that's your, that's your job is to be in those planes all the time. That's something that we we are quite concerned about. So again we're starting.
So a bit of a campaign to try and and and raise the awareness of of the federal government and try and get try and get some changes, both both short term and and and long term to to to change that from happening.

Perley Brewer   21:22
So the topics of violence and psychosocial health and safety, big topics these days, of course, what's your involvement in those two topics, Ben?

Troy Winters   21:33
So again, the the violence has been something QP, even long before I got the job, Q PS. Been a huge proponent of of trying to increase the legislation and and and get the enforcement.
Where we need it to be.
Now the legislation I I actually think we've done, we've done quite well. I I'm I'm generally pleased with most of the legislation across Canada and what it says organizations have to do for violence prevention. But it's kind of in the implementation of it. So this is where a lot of our work is right now.
When we look at schools, you know when when the schools are under resourced and they have, you know, children who have, you know, behavioral troubles and when they act out and people think, well, you know, they're just children, they can't do much harm, they they can.
You get you get a 10 year old, a 12 year old child with behavioral issues. They can cause a lot of harm, but again, it's not even just the physical harm. It's that constant concern is today, the day that they're going to whack me upside the head with a chair, or am I gonna get?
Bit so hard that it breaks the skin and bruises. I've seen education assistance with bruises up and down their arms. Is this the day that I have to have another assault? So that's.
You know that that's kind of where we are with the violence right now is trying to get the, the, the enforcement of the of the legislation and the adoption and and and again just good practices that that would help help reduce it, but also again increased resources for for these these segments of society that really need the the additional support.
As for psychological health and safety, again, this is a place we've been very, very busy. I've been doing a lot of a lot of writing for psychological health and safety. Just, you know, in like things like OHS Canada and stuff we have. We produced an entire psychological health and safety kit for our membership to try and.
Make sure they understand the different ways that we talk about psychological health and safety versus individual mental health, and there's still a lot of confusion in that realm, and I know it. Despite that, we've had a lot of education in it, but there's still a lot of confusion.
When we talk about psychological health and safety, a lot of employers I think are still thinking about the individual mental health angle rather than the organizational, systemic, psychological, health and safety types of protections they need to do so. That's kind of the area that we're trying to educate our membership in so that we start to look at those psychosocial.
Factors, whether it's the 13 factors that are in the CSA standard, the 1003 national standard, whether we look at that or whether it's broader, we've been writing. I've been trying to do a lot more writing around the other factors that we should also think about beyond the 13 factors. So it's a lot of education.
And just making people aware. So that's always the first talking about injuries. Rather we're talking about illness, making people aware of what causes the issue is the first step to making sure we put in the proper control. So that's kind of where we are psychological health and safety is still developing.
I think as a field, but we've come a long way in the last 10 years, but we're educating, we're pushing, we're working to get people to identify, to report, to actually talk about it at the health and Safety Committee. There's still push back to even talk about psychological health and safety at the health and Safety Committee because we hear things like.
Well, that's part of the Wellness program or that's part of the EAP. But no, we really do need to talk about it at the health and Safety Committee table. So that's the other place that we've been trying to educate our Members about bringing the issues forward. And luckily we're slowly we're seeing the changes in the occupational health and safety legislation.
The Scotia just brought in some new stuff. Just just recently. You know, the feds did. Did some back in 2018. Quebec has some. So I think Quebec, I think Quebec's probably the leader right now and their and their expectations around psychological health and safety there, their new legislation that just kicked in.
In September 1st, so luckily the you know the the legislation is always a bit slow to change, but of course we're we're seeing some good changes in legislation. So lots of lots of stuff going on in, in, in psychological health and safety.

Perley Brewer   26:05
A couple of questions to wrap up the podcast around your CSA involvement. You've said on on a wide variety of CSA committees over the years. What have you learned from your involvement in, in, in all the CSA committees?

Troy Winters   26:21
Yeah. So.
You know it's again that's that's a. That's a great question, cuz I have sat on a lot. I've probably sat on maybe 10 CFA committees and and now 33 ISO committees and and the real strength.
In the CSA committees is the First off. Nobody shows up to a CSA committee unless they want to do the work, so it's always a great, enthusiastic bunch of folks that want to develop a standard in whatever the area is like. There's never.
Most of the debates we have aren't about whether or not we do something, it's how we do it and what's the best way to do it, which is I think, a great place to have debates. And I've learned so much when we did the incident investigation standard we had over 1000 years of expertise.
In instant investigation, sitting around that table and it was, I think I learned more in that committee than I brought to the table. It was such a great group of folks. But that's the real benefit of the CSA standards, is the way that CSA models their technical committees. They make sure that it's a balance.
Once a group of folks sitting around the table, so we have labour. Of course we have employers and we have the government, but we also have specialists that don't fall in those categories and then we always have a few general interest folks that are just bringing in different views.
So for me, that's that's the real positive of the of the CSA standard development process and it ends up I think it ends up putting out kind of.
Sector not sector leading leading practice documents. So rather we're talking about incident investigation. Confined space. You know management of impairments.
General OHSMS systems like they really I think, are kind of leading leading practice documents. That's if if you're, you know, if you have confined spaces and you're not sure what to do. Yeah, go grab the go grab the 1000 and and six.
Yeah, 1006 CSA standard because you don't need to implement the entire standard. There's gonna be a lot of great practices in there that you'll be able to implement to help keep folks safe. And that's really true with everything in the suite of the management system standards that we've been able to put together. So I think that's.
That's kind of my one big take away is the amount of just great folks that invest their time as volunteers invest their time to make those standards kind of a leading practice. And of course, we don't agree all the time. There is debate, of course, but I think the debate makes the standards better.
Overall, so I think that's been my my big take away is it is it is actually worth the time to bring in the the different stakeholders and and hear everybody's views and opinions on how how to best deal with some of these hazards.

Perley Brewer   29:22
Here in New Brunswick, we've been going through a process of updating a lot of legislation as well. When you look at TSA over the last decade, they've certainly developed a lot of new standards. When does it become a little too much?
For the average workplace, I'm not talking about large employers with, you know, several thousand employees. But when you're when you're looking at the smaller employers, when when does all this legislation, I mean it's it's, it's good, you know, don't get me wrong when I ask this question like the provincial legislation, it's it's it's basic stuff, CSA standards.
They're they're they're excellent materials. But when does it become too much for that average workplace to be able to sort of comprehend, deal with and implement?

Troy Winters   30:10
And that's an interesting question because I I think and I've I've had this conversation a few times recently.
Because people think I I think this is again just by my personal view. Of course, there's a lot of folks that think health and safety is just this easy thing you can do kinda last minute like we'll just we'll just get that done whenever but I think.
We gotta change. We gotta change the mindset. Like, you don't just start Accounting at tax time, or maybe you do, but if you do, I'm guessing it makes your tax time a lot more difficult and we have to kind of have that mindset with health and safety. We should. We should try to build in health and safety in an organization.
Right from you and your wife. Open up a business in the garage. We gotta start thinking about health and safety as a fundamental core part of the business. So as they grow and even if they still remain small.
It's part of the core of your business. So you're already thinking always looking for hazards, always looking for assessments of the risk, always looking for putting in control and making sure people don't get hurt. And I think if they're just doing that core stuff always from the beginning.
Then, as new hazards come in, they're able to deal with them because every business has different hazards and it's always and as you probably know as well as others, a lot of the times when we see people, especially when people get killed.
It's when employers had literally no idea that even was a hazard. They didn't even know that was a confined space. They didn't know toxic gas could could fill up this, this this confined space. They didn't know because they're just a couple of folks trying to trying to make a buck, trying to run a business. Right. So.
Umm.
It could certainly seem overwhelming if you try and jump into it when you're already, you know, if you're already halfway out to sea. The water is really deep, right? But if you if you've been, if you've been kind of tracking along the whole way, I think that's the that's the the kind of the better way to think about it so.
Rather than, so I guess I called. I'll kind of turn it around. Turn your question around. It's not when does it become too much? It's how do we get businesses to start to think about health and safety from the very get go. So that as they grow and if there are new regulations that come in that deal with specific hazards that are in your workplace, they're already.
Able to deal with them because of course, if the hazard isn't in your workplace and a new regulation comes in, well then it doesn't impact your business, right? You don't have to do anything. And I think and that's the same way with CSA standards. I wouldn't expect a 20.
Shop operation to implement an entire occupational health and safety management system like 45,000 and one that would be that would be probably more than they would they would want to do, but there can be some great things in the standard that can guide their their their operations, their practice about you know which which documents they should keep and have on.
File in case they needed them in case a regulator shows up. Some other great kind of practice things that they could use, but yeah, I wouldn't expect smaller businesses to attempt to fully operationalize any of those big national big occupational health and safety management standards. That's probably.
That's probably too much, so I would suggest they don't think of they don't, and this is really true when it comes to psychological health and safety. We see a lot of folks talking about the 1003 standard, and I love the 1003 standard. It was groundbreaking. It really moved the entire practice of health and safety to start talking.
Thinking about psychological health and safety, but to turn to an organization and say you have to adopt every six, all 60 of the shall statements into your business. Before we say that you're any good at psychological health and safety, I think would be.
It would be very inappropriate for a lot of businesses, but if they could pick up that standard and say, yeah, I mean, I know we know workload's a problem, but now I know workload's a problem because not just burnout, but it's actually a psychological hazard and.
Oh, I, I I you know, I never really thought about how reward and recognition was actually an important thing. So, you know what? Just recognizing somebody when they've done that extra mile and and versus ignoring it or just thinking it's part of the job, like that's a psychological health and safety factor that that you know, so.
I I I think if we start to use them as, as, as as kind of leading practice assisting tools rather than expecting people to be 100% in, in the standards all the time, I think that's a kind of a better way. We can use some of those those resources if that if that makes sense.

Perley Brewer   35:10
Well, look, Troy, thank you very much for joining us on today's podcast. Very interesting topic. It's they're all topics that you mentioned that that we keep hearing about and it's certainly the CSA standards are a great way to to get more information on these topics as you mentioned.
So thank you very much again and to our listeners, a big thank you of course as well for listening to our podcast. Stay safe. Have a good week and we'll talk to you again next week. Take care.