Risks & Dangers of a Firefighter/Paramedic - Jason Waterhouse

Jason Waterhouse has nearly 30 years experience as a first responder including 10 years as a paramedic and 20 years as a firefighter.  Tune in as Jason shares some of his stories and experiences as a paramedic/firefighter.

Transcript

Perley Brewer (Guest)   0:35
Welcome to today's Podcast.
My name is Perley Brewer.
And I will be your host.
Today's podcast guest is Jason Waterhouse, who is here today to talk to us about the role and dangers of a first responder.
Specifically, we wanna talk today about being a paramedic.
Jason, thank you for agreeing to share your experiences with us as a first responder.

Jason   0:57
You're you're actually.
You're welcome, Perley.
I'm I'm looking forward to chatting with you.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   1:02
So let's start a discussion, Jason, getting you to tell us how listeners to little bit about your background is the first responder.

Jason   1:09
How well I have a combined almost 30 years experience, 10 years as a paramedic and the prediction region and surrounding area and the last 20 years.
What the Fredericton Fire department?
So I have a pretty extensive experience in background in in the in the first responder role.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   1:32
So short time ago we had a chance to do a podcast with one of your coworkers, Todd, who talked to us about first responder in regards to the fire department and and their role would like to talk to you today about your response when you were a paramedic with Ambulance New Brunswick.

Jason   1:46
Hmm.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   1:55
Um, what was on your mind when you when you responded to calls?

Jason   1:55
Hmm.
OHS there was a number of things.
One of the things that I learned early responding to calls is to never take our dispatch.
As golden, sometimes when you arrived like your typical calls of chest pains and different things like that, but you would have calls that that could change from your dispatch to to your arrival to what you actually have in front of you.
For as as a paramedic.
So I I would think of a number of things depending on what the call was.
I would obviously think about what we're being dispatched for, how I'm gonna treat, treat what I'm when I arrive, how I'm gonna treat the person with, with what we were dispatched for.
But I would also think, OK, off those, the people that are calling 911 are not trained individuals.
Um, there's a panic state because it's loved ones.
There's all different kinds of of variables there, from the caller to dispatch to us, so I try to keep an open mind on and not get tunnel vision on what possibly it could be outside of what I was dispatched for to prepare myself and to to give the the best possible treatment to that individual on arrival, along with along with my partner, who would be in the ambulance with me.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   3:30
So what kind of calls did you respond to over the years?

Jason   3:35
Ohhhhh lots.
Car accidents.
Your standard medical calls, which could be chest pain, strokes, um, things like that.
Um, along with the suicides? Um, different.
Farm farm accidents, um industrial accidents.
They're just just such a wide range of of calls on the on in the run of and in the run of a shift or their career of a paramedic that they'll come across that it's it's a wide range.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   4:16
When you were dating, would initially get a call.
Did you find your stress level changed depending on the type of call that you you'd received?

Jason   4:23
You.
When I first, it's funny.
I thought about this myself many times when I there would.
When I first started, I would call it excitement.
So there was definitely adrenaline rush.
I was young, didn't have kids, didn't have family, so it was definitely a an adrenaline rush to respond to calls.
As I progressed in went through my career.
Ended up having a family and children.
Your way of thinking and your thought process changes with that.
I find you take things more personal.
Um, you wonder?
Jeepers, what if that was my child?
Or what if that was my spouse or or my my parent and that was one of the challenges and working within a city that you grew up in.
I knew a lot of people and I responded to a lot of calls over the years where I knew people personally.
Some of those calls were successful.
Some of those calls ended in not being successful, and that takes a toll on you when you see, you know, family members of someone, maybe that you lost and it's like, you know, why couldn't how come I couldn't save them that day?
Or how come I couldn't, you know, do more for them.
It's it's, it's a.
It's a very, very.
Process of the careers very it's very up and down, I guess it's the best way to put it.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   6:09
Well, what did you find to be the toughest calls?

Jason   6:13
Uh.
Children for sure.
Suicides, one of the one of the ones that I remember that came out of out of my this probably would have would have been my first gunshot wound as a paramedic.
And it's funny how you can remember stuff so long ago it was down in the Lincoln area.
A gentleman was, I believe he was around 70, was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
Uh went home, where there's life.
Obviously it wasn't a good situation and he proceeded downstairs by himself and and shot himself.
Um and on arrival, um, that Lady, of course wasn't was in a hysterical mood and we walked in when I walked in there was there was just.
There was nothing we could do.
Um, and then her grabbing a hold of me and and hugging me.
Almost.
I felt like I like I was almost in a movie, her crying and and and almost kind of slapping my chest saying, you know, do something do something when there was brain matter and stuff all over the place there was, there was just nothing that could be done for that individual.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   7:32
Mental fatigue.
Post Traumatic stress disorder.
Talk to us about these two terms and and how you personally have dealt with them over the years.

Jason   7:43
Um, I've dealt with them many ways.
I was actually diagnosed with PTSD.
Um and a little bit of what you call mood mood disorder.
It's to me it's different for everybody.
Um, I deal with it in in, in different ways of being in the wilderness, going to find like peaceful areas, physical activity like the gym, um.
And also through my therapy that I that I attend to, still now once a week, and also I'm on.
I'm on medications.
I'm on. Actually.
I believe it's six different pills a day right now to help control emotions, mood, depression and and things like that over the course of my career, there's no.
Secret.
Excuse me?
Secret recipe I believe it's it's using your medical team and having the proper medical team in in line to help you with.
With what I call your post or I caught it.
Your your post journey with you with your work, with your work experience, even if you're still working because it's a journey in itself, because people tend to lose themselves.
With what?
They're responding to their career and what they're doing and and it's it's about finding yourself and being grounded to not have stuff going through your mind.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   9:09
The.

Jason   9:16
Nightmares, different things and coming back to reality and and having yourself be the best you can be for your family and and your friends.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   9:28
When you look around at your colleagues, do you have any sense of of you know, what kind of percentage of of people would suffer from the same sort of A situations that you do?

Jason   9:42
Personally, I I think and I believe we all do, to different degrees, everybody's at different stages in their careers, their lives, their situations.
But I believe we're all affected.
Um, it just depends to what degree and where they're at at at the particular time or this particular time, and I find my colleagues with what I would say 15 to 25 years on are probably the most affected.
It's almost an accumulation of calls and going to situations where people are having their worst day.
Um, that that tend to that tend to start bothering people.
One of my favorite things to say when you have somebody that might be a little bit skeptical of people or first responders cause I've heard the term saying, well, it's not like you're in the military or you know, something like that, which is 100% true.
That's more of an acute what what I would call in the cute PTSD.
They're going from a civilization of peace and quiet to a war zone, so it's an acute effect on them when they come back here to where for first responders and it's an accumulation of time and seeing seeing things that the average person doesn't see, um.
And what's really good about it is a lot of people don't understand how busy first responders are.
Um, so whether that's it's a good thing for that person, I guess they're not seeing, you know, things that we are.
But at the same time, there needs to be more education on the accumulation of calls and traumatic situations.
At first, responders are put in.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   11:35
Was there a any sort of stress debriefing done after responses?

Jason   11:44
There was very little, um, very, very little over my career.
It was more of talking to your partner or your colleagues, but for professional help, um there was there was never anything like that.
Very, very, very, very little um to me, there needs to be more.
More education given to administration, side of things and leadership.
Um, with more empathy towards their first responders, and it continued.
Support.
You can't talk to somebody who's going through situations PTSD, depression.
What?
Whatever they may be going through when they're at their lowest moment, you can't they it's.
And I'm not saying you need to baby them, but there needs to be a different approach to help them through their difficult times with the service that they've provided, you know, for the community.
And I find the leadership roles are not educated enough and and not enough compassion towards some of the first responders.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   12:52
I I'm shocked in a way to hear you say that.
Really, there's very little in the debriefing and being done.

Jason   13:00
Yeah, it's in and a lot of people are, and I am sure that administration or leadership would, they would argue that point.
But my personal experience, so there's this one isn't for when I was a paramedic, but when I was a fireman, I was on the shootings of the police officers here in Fredericton.
When I initially went off, was there lots of support from my from my administration?
My employer there was, but as time went on it was forgotten.
Um, so if I was dealing with something at work, um, or at home or whatever, I had to find my own my own ways of getting help.
You you have to help yourself more than what's there.
Um, they have certain things in place like an EPA program, which is like a employee.
So there's certain employees within our organization that you can go and talk to, but at the same time.
That's it's a good it it can.
It can be a good system, but can also be a broken system because not everybody wants to talk to individuals that work about what they're going through.
I know when I when I first was diagnosed with PTSD, I went to and once again this is going back to the fire department where I worked with the crew with years of community accumulation of what I went through.
I can remember saying who's gonna wanna work with me?
I'm a liability.
I'm.
I'm not somebody that somebody's gonna trust going into a call or a situation, and I can remember going and sitting with my crew and it was almost.
I almost felt like that day that I was given a life sentence.
Like almost as if I was told I had terminal cancer, is how I felt because I was going in to sit with them to tell them what was wrong with me.
And but I got the good support from them, but the in in and I and I did have it, but through administration and leadership of, of, of administration, you've forgotten about.
So I was lucky because mine was a work safe case, so I was given an actual psychologist.
Um, that works with PTSD. First responders.
Military, where some if they try to do it on their own, they couldn't end up with.
And I'm not saying that these people aren't art like regular counselors aren't aren't good at what they do, but it's almost like, I guess, going to your family doctor with a broken leg.
But you, but you need a surgeon.
So you need that specialization of people that deal with it.
Understand it and and can really help you through the steps of treatment and therapy and the process of of making yourself the best you can be.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   16:13
So how do your colleagues deal with this?
Daily stressing stressed environment.

Jason   16:20
It just it depends on the person.
I've seen a lot of it.
Some of it's very unhealthy ways.
It's alcohol.
It's a, you know, drug use, which you find kind of you you wouldn't think you wouldn't think that as as a first responder but alcohol, drug use people are they don't know where to go or how to find the proper help.
Sometimes the proper help isn't there.
Like I said, they're going to a counselor who may have more experience and and.
Spousal support, then a first responder.
With what they're going through with PTSD, mood disorders, depression, anxiety, different things like that.
So and their and they're not aware of the proper treatments out there for for those individuals.
So to me, there needs to be actual psychologists that are experienced that are available to 1st responders to to be able to find them easily and access them easily to start the healing process.
So as proper.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   17:38
Now in your current position, after you've responded to A to a tough call, an automobile accident, for example, whatever, even though maybe there's there's nothing formal as far as a debriefing process to are you finding that more and more just amongst those of you that have responded that you try to have a discussion just with each other?

Jason   17:52
Hmm.
We do.
Um it it it it really depends.
It may not be the day of it may be the next shift.
Um it all just depends how busy you are and what's what's happening.
Sometimes you just need to, for lack of a better term, wash, wash the blood off and replenish the the the apparatus and and get back to work.
Um, and there's no real time that day, but with with certain with certain, I wouldn't say.
It's not done enough.
I don't think there's to me.
I believe there's certain calls that you go on that you should almost be off for a week and see the proper people and see and see, you know, doctors, whoever, to make sure you know, I say a week, maybe it's longer, maybe it's shorter, but there should be a process there that you were involved in this situation.
It dictates that you're off this amount of time to go see this person to go see that person and and have follow-ups of it to to make sure that the first responder is dealing with the situation and what took place in the in the, in the proper healthy way.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   19:15
So PTSD, what are the more common treatments that are available now to deal with that?

Jason   19:23
There's there's.
So there's there.
There's a few out there.
I'm not 100% ah.
With all of them.
But like there's antidepressants, antianxiety meds, mood disorder stabilizers.
Uh, in this one, maybe I know some first responders that have done it.
They can ketamine therapy, which which is a which is a drug that's quite quite strong and and helps with with whatever ever whatever symptoms that that individual has.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   19:50
Alright.

Jason   19:50
So my psychologist asked certain questions and certain eye movements to help me almost break that connection of the thought process that I have, or what?
And then there's.
Things that I went through like the that I and I, I continue to go through now is the EMDR which is eye movement and and I have it written down here and desensitization and and processing.
Or maybe having one of the things that I like to how I explained to people there.
Like for instance, I would say, what do you see when you drive around the city and they'd be like, what do you mean?
And I'm like, what?
Like what do you see?
You see trees.
You see grass, you see flowers and they're like, yes, I see the tree.
Where I couldn't save that person on on a on that given night.
Or I see this.
I see that.
So it's a there's so many reminders and triggers out there after you've worked in a city for so long that you see things differently every day when you drive by and.
And so I could be getting up having a fantastic day and drive by a certain spot.
And and I'm not even thinking of it until I drive by it, and then all of a sudden, my anxieties, my anxieties up and my moods changing.
And if you were with me on our way to Tim Hortons, you might not understand why I just went from the happy Jolly Jason to being quiet, being distant, maybe a little bit.
Um, you know, be being off from.
From what you're used to seeing, if that makes sense.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   21:12
Have you found that treatment helpful?

Jason   21:16
It's yes, I have, but it it's a process.
It's not.
It's not something that I I don't know if I'll ever be able to not do it.
I don't know if it's a situation where if, if you ever truly, truly get better, I ride.
Truly think as a first sponder by the end of your career, most of us on different degrees really lose a part of who we are, and it's it's something that I don't know.
It's not something I think you can.
You can never ever fix totally.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   21:54
Are there other alternatives that we should be pursuing?

Jason   22:02
I really think the biggest things education.
When you even like for, for employers, education administration, there needs to be more education, even for spouses.
There needs to be help with because it's hard to explain sometimes how you're feeling or when somebody like I had, like for instance, my family.
I can remember a situation.
Uh.
Where they spoke to me and it was basically, you know, you need to get over it.
Um, it's not really the proper words to say that that situation didn't go very well that day, but they ended up going sitting with my psychologist themselves to have an understanding of what I'm going through.
The different the different situations, the different moods, the different you know, days.
Why?
I'm good one day.
Not so good.
The next and horrible another.
And it helps them understand, because as a first responder for one, you start out thinking I'm not gonna put this burden on my family.
I'm gonna deal with it, but for two, when it does get to that point to where there needs to be an explanation, we don't know how to explain why we feel the way we do.
It's it's it's very difficult to to pinpoint an explanation, but by them sitting with us psychologist and hearing it from them, it helps educate them and to help them choose their approach and their words when dealing with a loved one who who may be going through so things like that.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   23:43
Should we be trying to rotate first responders out of that position to other positions after a certain period of time?

Jason   23:58
I think it would be difficult like working as a paramedic.
Um, you know you're in a truck for 12 hours for two days.
Two nights, you know, with partners.
Where to change help possibly?
I'm not an expert on that, but I know with I'm I did it with the fire department, so not not as the paramedic.
And that process didn't help changing.
Still, I still have my, you know, have to go see my psychologist.
I'm still on my meds.
It's it's a process of whatever's broken inside me with my PTSD and and my anxiety and stuff.
I'm at the point now where it has to be controlled with meds and what I the what works for me the best.
It's like I said, so I I'm a nature guy.
When I'm feeling down and out, I will shut everything down like that.
I can shut down without outside of my parental responsibilities and things like that, and I will even go to the woods for that.
Works for me.
It doesn't always work for everybody else, and that could be me going fishing for the day brook fishing.
And it's this is all things that I've learned to do through my psychologist.
Um, because before I would think, well, if I'm off, I can't go with like I shouldn't be going with Perley on the Saturday morning fishing when I'm supposed to be at work.
But it's something that we as first responders need to realize, OK?
We need this break.
This is what's gonna help us hopefully get back to being into the best, the best person that, that, that that first responder can be.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   25:50
So if a colleague comes to you today with concerns about that, they're starting to really suffer from this dress, from the possibly PTSD and so on.
What?
What's your advice to them or how do you guide them?

Jason   26:05
I I always guide them to to start getting help.
I've had a few of them ask me if it really helps and I said to him that it it it did me.
Everybody's different.
I will whatever.
Whatever is out there that I know of for psychologists, doctors.
Um, different counselors.
Sometimes it's a slower process for others, but I I try to tell them talking to somebody to start digging on what your symptoms are and how they can be treated as is most important.
Um and most times they they they do that it's.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   26:47
Yeah.

Jason   26:52
Every situation just it's just so different.
It's not.
That's not a typical, you know.
Oh, I caught myself with a knife.
You need three stitches type thing.
It's it's some people need three stitches.
Some people need 40 stitches if that makes.
If that example makes sense, so the the biggest thing is directing them to where they can start getting help and hopefully they continue doing that, not start feeling better and then break away from it.
It's it's a really, it's a process that needs to be continued for.
For for a very very, very, very long time, the healing process is different than a broken bone.
Um or a cot?
It's it's it's a process and it needs to be changed like I know personally with some things.
My meds have been changed.
Different things like that.
So they're always they're always doing things to try to make you feel better or become that that person that you once were.
So I always tell them trust the process.
If you don't, if there's something you don't like, like I've known through my process, I've asked for a few different people because their, their ways of handling the situation wasn't healthy for me and there and they're OK with that.
They're professionals and and and they understand that.
So it's having the right team, the right people, your family support and and it's a, it's a battle day in and day out.
It's it's just, it's it's there's, there's not a time frame on that healing process.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   28:28
Now you might be able to answer the the next question, excuse me.
The next question for you for me in I remember a few years ago, they were looking at setting up a a centre and or Marketo for PTSD.
Now I'm not sure whether that was followed through on, or whether that was just for soldiers.

Jason   28:46
Hmm.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   28:46
Are you aware of any sort of specialized facility in the Fredericton area for folks that may suffer from PTSD?

Jason   28:54
I am not aware of anything like that.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   28:56
Yeah.

Jason   28:56
That is definitely something that would be very beneficial to 1st responders.
Um.
And once again, that all takes.
To me, that's a leadership role through government, um corporations, you know, whoever your employer is to say, OK, this is what's needed because it takes money that takes special, like you need psychologists.
Occupational therapists.
Different levels of training to help you with that.
It would be something that if you could have it as you know, you go to your family doctor and you're referred to that or a drop in type clinic.
I'm not sure, but that would be something that would be very beneficial because the biggest the biggest step for first responder is where is.
Cause I know that I was that way.
Where do I go?
Where do I need the help?
To be something that, if you could have it as you know, you go to your family doctor and you're referred to that or a drop in type clinic.
I'm not sure, but that would be something that would be very beneficial because the biggest the biggest step for first responder is where is.
Cause I know that I was that way.
Where do I go?
Where do I need the help?
And as you started it's it's a pretty difficult process right now.
It's not very easy and a lot of them just say screw it.
I'm.
I'm not gonna do it and and then they get, they get deeper into their into their issues of anxiety or depression or whatever it is without the treatment, so that that wrote the earlier to me, the earlier that somebody can get help, that process becomes a less traveled path than if somebody that's dealing with it for a period of time.
And now they're deeper into issues and things like that to come out of it.
So something like that would be very beneficial for for first responders and I'm not aware of anything of that of that nature.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   31:11
So as a society, what should we be doing to help folks out like yourself?
What the things that we're not doing that we should be doing if if someone were to come to you and say, look, you've been in, you know, both as a first responder in the.
In the sort of the medical profession end of it, and you've been also from the point of view of the fire departments, first responders, you've got a sort of perspective both sides, if you would be able to make recommendations, what would they be?

Jason   31:34
Hmm.
Yeah.
Education.
Education is a big thing, so once again, edge education for like to me when there should be something in place and and I know it's not like so when you come on to do your when your first hired let's say when I was hired with the ambulance there was nothing there.
Um to make me aware of warning signs of of things to watch for.
Or or to say, here's if you if this is happening to you, here's where you can go get help.
So there needs to be more facility facilities there for us provided for us to go to for help, but also the education from administration and employers and the government itself to say to really look at it and say what is needed and how can we go about helping these people in the earlier stages instead of getting them when they're 15 and 2025 years on and now they've really lost a piece of who they are and that road for that path going back to becoming more of yourself is it's a deeper scar than what than what it.
Could be so to me, early early intervention, um, being more, being more proactive for, OK, they were on this bad call.
They're they're off now, and they're gonna see an occupational therapist.
And a symbologist before they come back, you know, different processes there with the proper professionals that can really help.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   33:23
Have you had the opportunity to talk to any sort of young recruits in the in the paramedic profession to see whether or not it education is, is part of their training?

Jason   33:35
Um, I have not.
What I do know?
Um is with my last role that I had when I was working some of my role was public education um.
And what's funny is I would go to high schools, for instance, they would have job fairs and we would talk.
I would talk to them about, you know, basically they would come up to the table and they would have crashes when I talk and how how you get into be, you know a fireman or paramedic and and you.
What I really liked was there was 11 fellow that stands out to me in particular when I was doing that was a young man.
He I think he was 17 at the time and he he actually asked me what do you have for mental health support in your profession and it blew in.
It blew me away because those weren't the typical questions that I was getting from the high school era.
Yeah, kids.
And I stood back, and at first I didn't know how to answer him, but I just said I'm not gonna.
I'm not gonna sugar coat it.
So I said to him, I said you really need to look after yourself through things that make you feel good and healthy, whether it's the gym, the you know, nature, there's whatever it is that that helps calm and destress you as an individual.
But I said when I said do you really have to be proactive for yourself?
If you're not, then you're you're gonna fall through the cracks.
And I guess that's where I I'm disappointed that.
Government levels.
The higher government of Provincial, yeah.
Your employers, whoever it may be, we aren't proactive to have things in place.
So you don't fall through the cracks. Um.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   35:41
Now, now, earlier in our discussion, you mentioned the the shooting in the two police officers here in Fredericton.

Jason   35:49
Hmm.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   35:49
What was your involvement that day?

Jason   35:52
I that day we were dispatched for it.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   35:53
Yeah.

Jason   35:56
It's like it was out of complex that we.
Responded that I've responded to.
Probably I could say probably.
Multiple multiple times over my career.
And we were originally dispatched for a man down for a person down, and then while we were in route, we got told to shut down and and block the roads.
Um, for on that street, so that no nobody could drive through, drive through the scene, basically.
And we were probably about a hundred 150 yards from the scene where we stood behind our truck and basically watched the, the IT all go down with with the crews that were there and so not involved like police officers obviously, but you're you're there, you're seeing two of your colleagues that you know, um, you know, one being taken away in a police car to the hospital.
The hospital, the other one laid there for four hours while the scene was being processed and.
It was funny because the the day that that happened.
I felt very bad obviously, but I didn't.
I was on overtime that day when I was there and that was on a Friday.
I'll never forget it.
And then Saturday, I was at home.
Obviously I was not feeling the best um, but I went into work Sunday morning and when I walked in, it was the first time in my life that I ever took a panic attack.
My body, just in the way it was, explained to me through my psychologist of basically my cup overflowed um and a lot of that with with people today.
It's not just the work you have your work.
You have your home life.
And it's kind of a combination of everything that that can overflow your cup as I call it.
And that day, that was the call that overflowed overflowed my cup.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   38:12
From a point of view of a PTSD and and obviously the effect that had on paramedics, so the folks in Fire department, obviously the Police Department and Police Department and so on.
Um, which psychologically was had handled well.
That whole situation, there was enough support, provided you mentioned earlier that in a short term you would you had some help, but long term it seemed to disappear.

Jason   38:33
Yeah.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   38:38
What's your thoughts on on how that was handled?

Jason   38:38
Yeah.
I I can't speak for police and ambulance cause I wasn't part of it that day.
My experience, I can speak of.
So when I went into work that Sunday, um, I had my my platoon captain and my captains.
They all showed up, basically said you're off.
They started the work the workplace file on us, so I can almost say I was luckier than some because work safe found me.
The proper psychologist, the proper, the like every everything that I needed.
I was to start that journey back.
So I was off.
Excuse me the first time for.
I think it was eight months, nine months, and I can remember after a couple of months saying to my psychologist, you know, OK, I feel better.
I'm ready to go.
I'm ready to go back to work on, like, know you're not.
And here's why.
Because the stuff that they were seeing.
So you really it was good at at the start, but once I got back to work, there wasn't.
That that empathy in that.
And then being aware of what I went through and what I was still going through was not there.
So that's where I go back to that.
Leadership needs more education on how to do it.
It's part of it's to me the PTSD and the emotional side of things.
Is no different than a discipline side.
There's certain protocols that they have to follow to discipline somebody.
If I did something wrong, there should be protocols in there.
For what they have to do and and how they do it for for PTSD and the longevity of that person's career, to help make that transition back to being the best part of themselves, that they can be.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   40:44
Now, I'm sure you know small City lake prediction.
You probably had a chance to to to mingle with the folks from the Police Department, fire department, paramedics and so on.
That that were involved that day.
Do you?
Do you get a sense how they're doing these days?

Jason   41:03
I actually just talked to a gentleman.
Yesterday at the rank who was a police officer, he was one of the ones that were entered, that building that day.
And he is still.
In a he's back to work, but in a limited role.
Um, he has a he has a.
A therapy dog with him.
Now I'm not really sure.
I've never asked him what his role is at work, but he's he's an individual that today is still struggling very hard with what happened on that day.
And it's one of those things when you become a first responder, a paramedic, a police officer or a fire, a firefighter, there's always the chance, I guess, that you're gonna respond to calls like that.
But it's not something that we sign up thinking that we're gonna do.
So it's almost the reality of what you do kicks in and it takes a piece of it takes a piece of that person that you are and you never really get it back so.
It's one.
It's one of those things like, I know what the individual that I talked to, he's way better than what he was, but he's, but he's still not the same person that he was prior to that day.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   42:29
Now you mentioned that you hid behind the ambulance that day when you were blocking the street off.

Jason   42:37
Yeah.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   42:37
I guess one last one last question here and there for our Podcast.
You responded obviously over the years to a large number of calls.
Were there any of those calls that you were as well concerned about your own personal health and safety from a point of view of people on scene, maybe having different kinds of weapons, guns responding to maybe two or situation at a home where maybe there were drugs involved, there were knives, whatever.

Jason   43:05
Yes, I've been into a few homes where.
Uh, drug paraphernalia.
All that stuff is so we we have equipment that can like I know like on the All all after the the days of the shootings.
I know that there were supposed to be some training which never, ever really that I know of that it ever really took place they bought.
They bought.
Flack jackets for the fire department for certain calls, and we were supposed to train with the Police Department in conjunction with the ambulance.
And for whatever reason, that never really took place.
But I know that.
Our department purchased some some of the bulletproof vests and things like that for certain situations and calls, but I find.
Things never progress in we don't work together enough as agencies for those situations on roles of police, fire, ambulance and how it should, how it should take place and how it should go.
So basically when you get on those scenes, it is the decision of your officer, your captain, who's in charge, who could use more.
Not, not just the officer, but the crews themselves could use more training to understand police tactics, fire tactics, paramedicine tactics, and how those should be implemented during a certain situation that that's going on ohm.
So that is another hole in the system that I've always found is the is the is how agencies work together or or the lack of working together.
Now the people that are on scene and want to me, that's administration levels to organize that on scene, police, fire and paramedics work very well together, but there's no.
There's no actual procedures or training together to better understand why or how we're gonna attack a situation to to mitigate, to mitigate the circumstances.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   45:31
Look, Jason, I'd like to thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us today.
Obviously a very difficult subject for you.

Jason   45:36
Yeah.
Hmm.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   45:40
We certainly wish you well with your.
Dealing with the PTST, obviously it's it's a long term process A thank you very much again for for being willing to discuss it with us.

Jason   45:55
Thank you for having.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   45:55
I and I know from our discussion with one of your colleagues couple weeks ago.
I know he's he and I'm sure others appreciate the support you've been able to give to them as well.

Jason   46:06
Hmm.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   46:06
So thank you very much and for our listeners and our broadcast, if you have any ideas for future Podcast, we'd love to hear from you.
Really, where I would to talk to any individual that's has some involvement in any relation to health and safety.
Stay safe, folks.
We'll talk to you next week.