Risks and Dangers of Being a First Responder - Captain (Ret’d) Todd Nichol, Firefighter

Todd Nichol is a decorated retired Captain with the Fredericton Fire Department with 30 years experience as a firefighter.  Todd shares his experience and discusses the roles, risks, and dangers of being a first responders from a health & safety perspective.

Transcript

 Perley Brewer (Guest)   0:11
 Welcome to today's podcast. My name's Perla Brewer, and I will be your host. Today's podcast kiss is Todd Nickel was here today to talk to us about the role and dangers of a first responder. Todd, thank you for agreeing to share your experiences with us as a first responder.
G Todd Nichol   0:26
 Thank you very much for having me in.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   0:29
 Let's start our discussion, Todd with you telling our listeners about your background as a as a firefighter and a first responder and explaining to folks how that worked in your case.
G Todd Nichol   0:42
 I started off as a volunteer in northern New Brunswick on the fire service where it really got my feet wet.
 I worked in the pulp and paper industry and then I was a became a part time paramedic in northern New Brunswick for six years and when the mill downsized in the late 90s.
 I had to find a new a new profession, and so I just joined the fire department here in Fredericton and put 25 years in here with the city and.
 And loved every minute of it.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   1:14
 So from the point of view of of a call, if a call comes in to your, the dispatch and it's forwarded to your station. For example, whichever one you're based out of, how do they handle calls that come in, whether it's a, a fire call, or perhaps it could be a medical assistance call, whatever. I'll just have work just to explain to folks.
G Todd Nichol   1:33
 OK, what the first thing do is when you dial 911 in the City of Fredericton and surrounding areas, it goes into our central dispatch, which is run by the City of Fredericton.
 Their 911 centre. They would take the information down for an example if it was a structure fire they would take the name, the address and what the problem was and what type of fire was and they would dispatch one of the four fire stations in that location. So if it was in Nashua access for an example.
 The Nashville Access Northside area it would be Nashville Access fire station at a Royal Rd and two nations crossing trucks that will respond to that call. Now a medical call works a little bit different. Medical call. You still dial 911. It comes into our centre, they get some information down and then they transfer you to medic Centre which is at a Moncton which dispatches the paramedics in this area.
 In the city of Fredericton, we have what they call a tiered response.
 So if it's somebody who has difficulty breathing or chest pains, or a life threatening injury.
 You get all three emergency services dispatched, so the 911 dispatcher would then dispatch the the correct fire station with the guys from that station and the fire the Police Department and then EMS is on route through Medic Centre. They're sending them on their way to that address.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   3:01
 Now you and I had a chance to e-mail back and forth over the last few days and and you identified 4 different types of calls that you could get relative to re emergency response plus obviously as well the the firefighting role that you have as well the four types you identified was medical assistance called Hazmat calls, car accidents.
 And workplace accidents. Now, before we get into each of those and and get, I'll get you to talk about each of those plus firefighting. What what was sort of.
 What you might run into what was your mindset when you got one of these calls from the point of view of, you know, you're you're getting, for example, a medical assistance call and and as you leave the station to respond, what's what's going through your mind at that point?
G Todd Nichol   3:44
 None.
 Well, it it, that's the thing about being a first responder and it doesn't just mean being a firefighter or a police officer or a paramedic. When you get those calls, you know there's.
 Those are regular every everyday calls. Those are word in the profession that that you you were seeing the worst that you can imagine. So when we go, so we're going to work everyday knowing there's a chance that something will happen and it's just part of that business.
 So when we're going to those calls, we're mentally preparing ourselves.
 So especially like on a on a, on a motor vehicle accident or a a medical assistance call where you know you're you're preparing yourself to face death.
 And you know, and and and major injuries, injuries and you know and that you're not normally seeing on a regular on a regular everyday person type idea so you try to prepare yourself mentally and physically to.
 So we can go there and do our jobs correctly.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   4:57
 OK, so let's talk. Let's go to each of the categories and then we'll each of the examples you gave and and talk about those. So you get a medical assistance call, walk us through what would happen as you drive out to the medical Census college, you arrive on scene and and what takes over there from the point of view of what you have to look at, hazards, concerns, issues for both your safety and the safety of of your partner.
G Todd Nichol   5:08
 No.
 Yeah. So we're going out of when we respond from the fire service, we usually have three to four guys minimum on a on a, on a rest on a truck. So there's four of us that are going. We get that if we're using medical assistance calls and getting those medical assistance calls, things are going through your head. Well, dispatch is getting the information, they're transferring it to us. So somebody who was stopped breathing or has had chest pains and is now unconscious on the floor.
 As we're responding to the call, we're thinking about everything that we're going to need to bring in. We need to bring in our kit. We need to bring our defibrillator fibrillator in.
 These are things that we're just that everybody as a crew was going through. We're preparing ourselves. We're getting our gear ready and then we arrive on scene. And the first thing is is always safety.
 I don't know if you have pets or if our listeners have pets. Sometimes pets are very aggressive and very protective of their family and so those are things like just a just a small little hazard that people don't think of a pet for us, we don't know that animal.
 It could be a small little dog, but a small little dog has a vicious bite and you know, we don't know that dog. We don't. We're not in that household. We're not around that family. So those are things that we have to take into account. Another thing is, too, is how did that, how did that happen? Was it domestic violence? Was it, you know, everything has to be taken into account. These are constantly being run through your at the officer's brain as a as.
 A officer. He's in charge of that crew and he's got responsible for those for his members.
 And so he's constantly thinking, I'm always scanning.
 It could be something as well. Somebody fell off the ladder. They were putting up Christmas lights. Well, how? Why did they fall off the ladder? Did they just slip and fall, or was there electrocution? The floor is wet. Is there live wires on the floor? You know, we could be stepping into a situation that we don't expect the unseen very that you can see.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   7:25
 So how do things change for you during COVID, for example?
 Take back to COVID.
G Todd Nichol   7:29
 COVID. Well, we'll go back to COVID. COVID was well. It had nothing. Nothing changed. We still have to protect ourselves. The only difference would be face masks and Shields, that sort of thing and gowns.
 Other than being protected, we always had latex gloves or nitrile gloves. You know, we always protected ourselves as much as we could, and nothing's changed in that. That sort of sense of the way it was, just the procedures and limiting the exposure.
 If we only needed two guys to go in on that call because somebody was just having chest pains, still conscious, but we don't need to send far four or six guys into that building, we keep keep them out and when we would only send in the minimum requirement. So those COVID is really on an emergency response. Nothing's changed. We still respond. That's, you know, compared to when you go into a hospital setting where it's controlled environment, when you go into emergency emergency scene, it's not really a controlled environment, it's.
 It's it's an environment that plays along and plays out as the day as the time goes by.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   8:38
 Now I talked to you earlier and I I mentioned one scenario that I was talking to a paramedic one day and he talked about going into, I guess what you would call a a drug house situation where you know as a first responder he and his buddy went in and his buddies working on a individual who was suffering a fairly major blood loss and and you know he looks around the room and he sees some drug.
 Equipment on the table and drug items, and then he sees looks and he sees a knife and a gun and that sort of thing. And all of a sudden it's heightened scenario. Did you ever run into any of these kinds of situations where you went into environments that made you?
 Really concerned for your safety.
G Todd Nichol   9:21
 Yeah, but that's when we get back in. It does it does. There has been a few calls where I've where I've gone in where you want to go in and help our a firefighter's mentality. Attitude is let's get in there, get it done. And rather than save somebody and so. But when you get into those situations, dispatch, you'll notice. Well, they'll say this is a known problem area or it could be domestic violence. There could be weapons on scene. You know, we don't that because there was a past incident at this address.
 When we respond to those.
 This is why that three tiered response that I talked about earlier comes into effect. You know that the police officers are coming in beside you. They're there to protect you. We won't just go in the door. We have to wait for them. If we if we feel uncomfortable in any way.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   10:01
 OK.
G Todd Nichol   10:08
 For the a hazard to ourselves or our life, we'll wait for the proper authorities to come in and and assist. There's even been scenarios where they've they've gone to an incident similar to the one you were Speaking of and where they told us no. You're staging us a block away. They'll stop us at a block away until they control the scene. It's it's one of the hardest things to do.
 That hurry up and wait. Attitude of firefighters is that doesn't exist.
 We can't. We're not a we're not a a bred that way to to wait. We want to help right away. And that's when I find the hardest. The hardest thing. But that's where this three tiered response comes in. If you'll feel any uncomfortable or safety any wise, you're gonna wait for those police officers to do it. To do that. And they know we're coming, just like we know they're coming and they know the paramedics are coming.
 So it we all communicate together, the systems that are nowadays I think I think we're getting into a question before.
 The communications now is much more versatile than it was back in the day when I first started, communication between departments was very hard. We weren't even on the same frequencies, but now we can be combined. Dispatch and drag us over on a computer and we can talk right with the officer so.
 Those things have developed safety wise.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   11:31
 What about hazmat calls?
G Todd Nichol   11:34
 Czmac calls a lot of people think a hazmat calls is, well, somebody just spilled some chlorine bleach type idea. We have a one of the busiest highways going through New Brunswick, right? Just running up the hill from us. It's amazing how many. How much chemicals are being transported back and forth.
 An example is just just take a transport truck that's been delivering to the local hardware stores. You have mixed chemicals and mixed loads everything from summertime you have pesticides, herbicides.
 To gasoline and and paint thinners. When you mix those two together.
 You, you know, you don't know what you're getting. It could be a volatile reaction. It could be so if the truck has an accident. We have to know what's on those loads. And that's all part of that Hazmat hazmat calls. There is a team in Fredericton. That's a provincial team. It's a hazmat provincial team. It covers this area as well as Saint John has one. Moncton has one up north, has one and it covers an area. So we we respond with specialised equipment.
 Specialised gear.
 That had to their own Hazmat equipment trailer that is geared just for Hazmat calls, but the safety suits are fully encapsulated, that sort of thing with plug and **** systems, it's it's fully loaded.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   12:56
 Now when it comes to Hazmat calls, I know we have, for example, a pulp mill just upriver here, not a great distance, uses a lot of chlorine. So they get a lot of chlorine shipped in the in rail cars, they get chlorine shipped in, in trucks.
 Do you ever find? Had you ever found yourself in any of those scenarios where you were dealing with a larger commercial grade type chemical, whatever?
G Todd Nichol   13:23
 The the clothing in my career in this area, chlorine leakage, we do have just for an example we had an ammonia, a truck was carrying ammonia for explosives in one of the road constructions when they were building the highway and up towards up above in the dumpers area before that highway was open. They use ammonia for blasting agent mix mix with like a diesel product and and A and a detonator.
 Well, they had a truck go off the road full of loaded with ammonia and then you got these two saddle tanks that are on the transport truck carrying diesel so.
 You mix the two together, so everything has to be taken in place. It's this is the hurry up and wait. Hazmat is a hurry up and wait. Which is hard for firefighters to get their head wrapped around. But Hazmat, you have to really plan your scenario. That's why sometimes it takes so long to clear an accident or clear an area from a hazardous material spill. Because everything that has to be taken slowly. How are we handling it?
 Do we need to notify Transport Canada? Do you know? Are they going to send crews in from the company to to help clear clean it up? 'cause. We're not. We're not going to pick it up. We're just there to control the scene.
 And assist and and and just rescue people if necessary.
 We're not there to clean up.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   14:41
 Now we had. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
G Todd Nichol   14:44
 Good. No, go ahead.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   14:46
 We had a gentleman on one of our previous podcasts from Liberty Utilities that deal with natural gas and of course every summer people start digging and you always get, you know, breeches. And did you ever respond to those and how are they handled?
G Todd Nichol   15:01
 Yeah, the the breaches on our natural gas is the natural gas is lighter than air. So it'll it'll go to dissipate into the atmosphere.
 The hazard is is is having a spark in the area. You do get it when a lot of construction when you're constructing a road, sometimes the pipe is not exactly where it was supposed to be in the ground and they might strike it or they might not have known that the pipe was there. So they strike the ground you we go in, we can again, it's a hazardous materials incident.
 You don't have a full-fledged hazardous materials team response. The fire department can handle it. Usually fire police will isolate the area, coordinate off and have liberties. Utilities come in and then they have assist guys where they go in and actually clamp off or shut it off further down the further down the line.
 And isolate it that way. Natural gas is is the nice thing about it compared to propane, propane is heavier. It wants to find lower areas. So it accumulates in low lying areas. Natural gas is lighter it.
 It'll dissipate into the atmosphere, so as long as the gas is dissipating in the atmosphere and there's no sparks around, they can control it and shut it down.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   16:16
 So you mentioned Hazmat team. How many teams do we have here in New Brunswick and what kinds of situations would they respond to?
G Todd Nichol   16:26
 Rather, there's presently there. I think there's four teams in the province to split the province up into four and what they what they respond to is anything. What could be rail transport, large quantity, large quantity, hazardous materials, anything on the highways, that sort of thing that we don't, they don't transport anything out of our airports that are hazardous.
 And rail cars are getting few and far between.
 Mostly down towards Saint John area, that sort of thing, the nuke, the power plant that's in a nuclear power plant in Saint John at Lepros, they have their own firefighters that are there to train specifically in that area. If a municipality was to go in, in the system, they would be staged and they would just be sent to do to help out. They wouldn't. They're not the primary responders.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   17:20
 OK, let's talk about car accidents. I remember reading an article here a year or so ago, saying that more RCMP officers are killed in car accidents than in other aspects of the job, and that I guess, you know, is is kind of startling in that, you know, we'd normally think of RCMP officers, very dangerous occupation. They're going to be exposed to all kinds of scenarios where they could get shot or injured.
 Yet something as simple as as responding to a car accident. That's actually the most dangerous scenario for them.
 Yourself as a first responder, you've responded, I'm sure, to a million car accidents, so to speak. What was it like? What did you look for?
G Todd Nichol   18:02
 Well, did you want to deal with it more on the safety side or being responding?
Perley Brewer (Guest)   18:06
 Sure.
G Todd Nichol   18:08
 You know it, it it's a lot of those accidents are occurred from what they we have in New Brunswick what they call the move over and slow down law.
 A lot of first responders are injured and and and killed across Canada and in across North America.
 By pass other vehicles passing by.
 They're passing by too close. They're getting clipped. They're running into the back of of police cars that are parked there behind somebody that pulled over for speeding or a motor vehicle accident. And there were people are running in.
 Firefighters, we call them lucky lose. They're the ones that are. They're looking over their shoulder to see what's going on but not paying attention to what's not, that they're driving. And then the next thing you know, they're running into somebody.
 We had a firefighter a few years, quite a few years back, probably 20 years ago now. I can't remember exactly, and I won't mention any names, but.
 He was struck by a what we call a looky loo on sunset. Dr Broke both his legs, so those are.
 Those are injuries that can be prevented, and there's a lot of push on there lately with a new programme out. It's the emergency responder on on motor vehicle accidents and how to park your vehicle, how to use your vehicle for blocking and protecting yourself on scene.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   19:32
 Workplace accidents.
G Todd Nichol   19:34
 What's that? Sorry.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   19:34
 Virtual workplace accident.
G Todd Nichol   19:38
 Report.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   19:38
 Accidents that occur on the job. How? How are you involved in those in the private just to let folks know?
G Todd Nichol   19:43
 Workplace accidents.
 You look at, you know, the incident that happened at one of the local lumber yard here a few years back.
 Those are incidents that we respond to firefighters and emergency first responders are the 1st to respond to any type of incident. So if you're in trouble, if you have a problem, you're going to be firefighters are going to be there and 1st responders are going to be there. Police are going to be there. So workplace accidents, you do have them.
 They they are the same thing, but we rely on those people. Let's say we respond to an industry, we rely on those people that are there. We've never, we don't know every building. We don't know every hazard that's a bit when we respond to these calls.
 So we rely on the people there to help us in this area. What's dangerous, what's moving in this area? Sometimes we'll actually use operators from that site to help us because we don't, we don't have the the guys that are trained are trained to operate that specific piece of equipment.
 The workplace incidents it's not. It's every firefighters respond to everything. So that's one of the ones that, you know, everybody says well, why do you respond to a workplace incident? Well, we're there to help the people that are injured.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   21:05
 So firefighting in itself.
 From a health and safety perspective.
 We won't get into this over the fighting itself, but for just a health and safety perspective, when when you guys or ladies arrive on a scene?
 What kinds of issues are you looking at relative to the health and safety aspect?
G Todd Nichol   21:27
 Let me look at stuff over the years, like when I started in a in firefighting.
 I started. We were issued a pair of rubber boots and a long a long fire coat.
 And that was our gear. Nowadays our gears changed and developed safety wise it's called bunker gear. It's full pants and full leather boots and jackets. They're all what we call fire proof. They're not fire, they're fire retardant more than they are fire proof they they will burn. People think that fire gear.
 Is indestructible.
 It's just to keep the heat and the flame from an impingement flame that passes over.
 But fire gear has developed over the years.
 The other thing when it comes to responding to calls and some of the changes and challenges.
 Is we call small homes on Big Lots and big homes on small lots.
 You'll notice at homes now are are are huge. They're over 2500 square feet. Easy.
 You know, but the lots are the same size or smaller, so you got houses so close together that when you have a house fire in one, you're probably going to do damage to the other one beside it.
 That's that's one thing when there are smaller homes are easier to fight, it's contained in an area, big loss. The next house is a long ways away, so you end up that way.
 Compartment houses back in the older days, you look at some of the older homes people say, well, those old homes will burn up. Oh, yeah. Yes, they will. They they burn faster because they don't have any fire stops in the walls.
 But they're compartmentized. Usually when they say, close the door when you're leaving your classroom. That's the reason.
 In school that I was part of the safety drill. Well, if the fire's in that classroom, it'll contain to that one classroom. Nowadays, homes are built open concept. So when you come in the living room, everything's open. Fires that are burning in the living room now have more oxygen from other rooms and can spread more readily across across that house. So they're harder to fight that way.
 Solid versus lightweight building material and instruction. Everything now is going to lighter lightweight construction.
 Less mass before the lumber was true, when they had a beam up, it was a solid 10 by 10 beam that when you even know if you have to camp fire, the bigger your speed block would you put in the harder gut to get burning. And the longer it would burn, now they're going into the laminated structures glued together. So the high temper, low temperature, flammable laminate glues.
 And then they're only held together with metal plates. So as soon as it starts burning around that metal plate.
 Those metal plates let go and you have collapse. So is this the structures are not lighter weight. Yes, faster to build, cheaper to build. But it gets to the point where it gets more dangerous for firefighters in my in the, in the firefighting.
 The other thing is materials themselves natural. Back in the old days, everything was made of wood or cotton or paper.
 Now it's all synthetics.
 You know synthetics out there, they they're synthetic. They're either a plastic.
 Derivative or an oil based derivative or hydrocarbon. Those products now when they burn, they're burning at well over 2000° inside that inside that room compared to the old days where it was just paper and cotton, then you're getting all about 1000 to 1200°. So double the temperature inside the home. So those are a real concern for firefighters when they're get when you're in there.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   25:29
 You've been a firefighter for a number of years. Question I I'm curious about is is what kinds of changes have you seen over that period and maybe to finish off with what are, what are the biggest challenges this in this day and age for a firefighter?
G Todd Nichol   25:48
 A lot of that is is.
 The biggest changes, like I said when I started talking about fire gear.
 Yes, the better quality gear we're getting, the safer we're we're we're we're getting.
 But the problem is when you have the better quality gear you can go that little bit further inside that house or inside that building on a structure fire, you can take a little more heat, but that heat now is at a double temperature. What it used to be. So you might be putting yourself in host. I'm not hot yet. I don't feel anything burning on me yet. I can go a little bit further.
 I can hear something down the hallway. I'll go a little bit further.
 That's where the training comes in and I think training is developed over the years. The more you're trained, the better you get, the more natural it becomes. Training is very important in a firefighting possession profession.
 So it changes that in in that way.
 Changes for the risk, let's use car fires for an example.
 You have nowadays you have electric vehicles, EVs.
 They're all with lithium batteries and just the other day, the Canadian Fire Chief Association had a little on CBC. They were showing they talked about lithium batteries and lithium batteries when they overheat and short out people think you're putting water on them, but you're actually creating more fire by putting water on lithium. It reacts with the water, so it creates more, more heat.
 So those are issues that we have to take into account cars.
 In general, when they're burning, create a million and one different types of gases an off gases.
 That's a very major concern for firefighters.
 With the all these synthetic products that are being made is that the off gases when these things burn, they they cannot be good for your health and cancer causing agents?
Perley Brewer (Guest)   27:48
 So when you come across the vehicle, one of the new electric vehicles.
 That has a lithium batteries. How do you put that fire out right now?
G Todd Nichol   27:59
 Well, there, right now we have their chemical extinguishers that are ideally for that are made for their class D chemical extinguisher. They're made for putting out fires, electrical fires and and and those type of fires.
 If it gets to the point where you have to use water or you just use lots and lots of water, but be prepared for what they call a flare up where you get that splash of the sparks coming out. So this is part of that training we got on. Firefighters spend more time in training. I come out of it and I retired, you know, it's been over over five years now.
 And so I'm I'm missing that new training of that lithium battery training, so I'm missing all of this training with a with just what I'm keeping up with my reading of my own. So for me it's it's even even in those short time that I've retired, firefighting has changed. And I think you're going to see changes, equipment's getting better, you know, gears getting better trainings.
 Getting more intense, but you're also getting the products that are out there in the market like lithium batteries?
Perley Brewer (Guest)   29:10
 So I I.
 By talking when it comes to 1st responders, firefighters post post, can you still hear me?
G Todd Nichol   29:14
 Last year.
 Yeah, I have a little bit broken up and talk about post traumatic stress.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   29:23
 Yeah. OK. So basically, I I'd be remiss if I.
Marc Daigle   29:26
 Sorry to interrupt. Can we can we cut back just a little bit? I don't know if everybody's screen cut out.
 Just to the last.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   29:34
 OK, where do you want me?
Marc Daigle   29:36
 It was, yeah, sorry.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   29:36
 OK.
 OK, to to finish off this podcast. Todd, I'd be amiss if I didn't finish it off by asking you as a as a first responders, as a firefighter, post traumatic stress disorder. You've obviously over the years over your career as many firefighters and 1st responders, you you've seen some horrific situations that obviously have been extremely difficult to process. Do you think we've we've been doing enough to help?
 First responders in dealing with those or not.
G Todd Nichol   30:10
 Well, I'm gonna start off just this is one that it's close to me because I was diagnosed with PTSD and.
 And and being and being treated for now with the help of medication and and counselling.
 But I'm just going to go through a little bit. I had a little bit of write up on this one and most often people think of PTSD is a context with of war.
 You know, with combat veterans, you know, returning, but most of the time when those combat veterans after war come back, they're in their civilian life after deployment and they sort of.
 You know, sort of get you get grown out and how to handle it well, firefighters, police officers and paramedics, you know, you're involved in this regularly on a routine exposure every day that you go to work.
 It it you're exposed to all types of traumas and it's and it's for years. And so it just get it gets hard that way.
 I'm just going to read through a recent study here that goes on 1st responders that said that.
 Based on a 25 career study of firefighters and 1st responders exposed to a routine daily incidents presented a probable PTSD diagnosis of 14% with a large number of them between 4% and 54%. In contrast to three to 38% in the military workforce.
 And then just for a baseline, they said Canadian general population will show a rate of 3.5% to 8% / a lifetime rate.
 So just in fire first responders over a 25 year career and medical and military, I'm not saying anything that they don't see it as well, but a lot of people think that when you say PTSD, they think military, yes, the military is high at 38%.
 But you look at firefighters and 1st responders, they can go up there, they're at 54% over the over a 25 year career compared to the general population of a lifetime of, you know, of 7070 years or 75 years.
 And PTSD. So if people are wondering symptoms of PTSD, nightmares, flashbacks, avoiding reminders of traumatic injuries.
 They're easily startled or angered.
 And research shows that 25% of firefighters and other first responders will pass the diagnostic threshold.
 That for PTSD at some point in their career, so they might not be desert.
 Diagnosed with PTSD, but at some point in their career there's going to be a day that they're going to be over that threshold limit that they're going to, you know.
 So it's a higher number of first responders experience symptoms of light PTSD and do not meet the full PTSD criteria. So even though they're going to work every day.
 Far, you know, people think of firefighters as tough, you know, and give them anything. They'll do anything first responders, paramedics, this it's. It's hard. Every day you go in there and you see somebody.
 Especially it wasn't too bad for me when I first came to Fredericton. I didn't have family here and I didn't know very many people because I was originally from North Shore, but I couldn't. Friends of mine and fellow workers that I work with, we would respond to a medical call to somebody's house.
 They would know that person personally and we'd be doing CPR on them. They know the family and the and the and the wife or the OR the mother is is they knew them. Personally, I can't, you know. I was a paramedic in northern New Brunswick and just on a few calls that I had up there where I knew people personally, it's hard. It's it's a hard thing to do to to be telling somebody.
 Or knowing in your mind that this person has passed, there's no.
 You're trying to do it to keep the family's hopes up, you know, and and that eats eats away at you down the road.
 Over the years.
 You know, they've studied. They did studies on PTSD and 1st responder and.
 They say that repeated tram exposure.
 Will include. Will also include diagnosis of depression, anxiety, substance use and suicides.
 All of which are more common among first responders than in that general population or the military and.
 A lot of times alcohol becomes a coping mechanism.
 I've had a close friend of mine that had PTSD. He had problems with alcohol, he passed away.
 You know, it's it. It's a way day cop and how to get around it and.
 And just.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   35:17
 What more should we be doing? What more should we be doing to to help people like yourself and others that that are are suffering through and trying to deal with their PTSD?
 Any advice?
G Todd Nichol   35:29
 Well, I think, yeah, I think that the, the.
 It's come a lot. It's a long way.
 You know there's there's peer support now that's out there that's out there.
 There's, I think people are being more aware. I think the employers are being more aware of it and I think they're they're they're they're trying. I think they're trying to to to really help and.
 And to do that, but I think a lot of it too has to do with the fact that our our we we do have a you know you look at the at the provincial news that's out there on our health system and the mental health is always in the news.
 I think.
 That in just in my experience, I think that our medical professionals don't really understand what first responders go to.
 I don't. I really don't. I really don't think just for an example, I went into the office, one of my first sessions and and I had to change a medical health provider because he just like said, well, just shake it off.
 Just shake it off like I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't come get my head around that. Just shake it up because they don't have the training or the knowledge of what first responders do.
 They think, well, you're not in the military. That was one that was one medical health depression that said.
 You're not in the military. Why do you? You know you don't PTSD well.
 He wasn't on that call where I was coming back from camping in up at Jellystone Woodstock on the old highway, where I seen a family get killed in front of me, and I responded there with no gear on, just my I was just coming back with my family and I was there trying to save this gentleman that was driving his life and his daughter had died in the back seat and, you know.
 People just don't see that.
 People think, oh, first responders have the, you know, the firefighters are big, bulky guys and put it off. I think we've come a long way. The attitude of I how should I say that?
 They used to say suck it up.
 Back in when I first started, suck it up. That's the part of the job.
 You know, that sort of thing. Now it's not like that anymore.
 I think families when firefighters or first responders are there. Families are a big supportive. You have to have a family that supports you behind you.
 That that's huge and and close friends. And I do think we're we are moving in direction slow. We're slowly getting there but I think I think in the long term I think you'll see it coming a lot more and a lot of that I think has to do after 911 if you can remember back when the 9 after 911.
 Firefighters were never ever mentioned before 911.
 And after 911, like everybody wanted to be a firefighter.
 Was just huge, but now that's sort of gone away again.
 Well, I think I think we, I think it's I think we're I think we're moving in the right direction.
 I think a lot of our it's not just for first responders that are that need the medical help. I think our system in the province is slowly working towards.
 Improving that for everybody that has mental health, whether it's children or you know, our first responders or the general public, I think mental health is getting there. But I think mental health community has to look at it. Same first responders are.
 You know, are more than just guys that go out and help you and get off. There are also people that need to be treated as well.

Perley Brewer (Guest)   39:33
 So you mentioned 911 and and I'm not sure if a lot of folks realise that more first responders have died since 9:11 than people died during. Excuse me, during 9/11 and and you stop and think about that. More first responders have died since 911 from complications, health complications of fighting.
 Fire, dust exposure, rescue and so on. Then people actually, the number of people that actually died.
 During 9/11 and then that shows you the the health struggles, the complications and so on. Look, Todd, topics, we can talk about all day, but to just to finish off here, I'd like to thank you very much for joining us on today's podcast. We certainly appreciate you taking the time for our listeners. Thank you much for. Thank you very much for listening today. Stay safe. We will see you next week.