Darrel Nickerson, CRSP - 2024 WorkSafeNB Safety Star Award Recipient

Tune-in to our discussion with Darrel Nickerson on receiving the much deserved 2024 WorkSafeNB Individual Safety Star Award.  Darrel is a renowned Safety Consultant & Educator and is a highly sought after conference speaker  with a long career in the health & safety field.

Transcript

 Perley Brewer (Guest)   1:10
 Welcome to today's podcast. My name is Pearlie Brewer and I will be your host. New Brunswickers are the heart and soul of safety in our province. Individuals and organisations lead the way to safe and healthy workplaces. They help develop a culture where everyone participates, encourages and supports one another in health and safety. To recognise these outstanding New Brunswick leaders.
 Work safe and be presents safety Ster Awards annually at their health and Safety Conference recipients are honoured for their initiative.
 Hard work and profound affect on health and safety, among other health and safety champions, one of the two safety star individual rewards is past fall, went to Darrell Nickerson for his outstanding accomplishments in the field of health and safety. We are honoured to have Daryl with us for today's podcast. Welcome, Daryl.
Darrel Allan Nickerson   2:02
 Thank you very much pearlie. I appreciate the opportunity.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   2:06
 First of all, Daryl, I'd like to congratulate you on your award very well deserved.
Darrel Allan Nickerson   2:11
 Thank you very much. Yeah, it was quite an honour.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   2:14
 The last fall said work state conference they shared a video on your contributions to the field of health and safety and in particular at that time to the Irving organisation.
 You now officially are retired, so for us today we have the opportunity to look back at the earlier and much younger Daryl Nickerson and to talk about all the all of your career. So let's start with some reminiscing. Why don't you start by telling us, Daryl, about your career and walk us through how I developed over the years?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   2:46
 Sure.
 I you know, it's been a a 35 year career with with JD Irving and had a had a fantastic time, learned lots. My career started in the trucking business, spent almost 20 years in the in the trucking business between Midland and RST. It's been a variety of roles between safety and and operations.
 Really get into the business because of my dad. Most of some of the.
 Folks or some of the listeners may may know. My dad, Earl Nickerson, was in safety for many, many years, and I think I developed a passion for it early, and I spent spent the time in the trucking business, had the opportunity to spend some time in operations and then had an opportunity to work corporately with with JD Irving and and really had the opportunity to see a lot of different businesses, a lot of different industries.
 And really understand safety from all the different aspects and.
 And then most recently I was with pulp and paper for about 5 years and and really just continued to learn and continue to grow and and pass on that knowledge where I could.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   4:01
 So what was health and safety to like? If you go back to your earlier days and when you sort of started in the field, what was it like back then?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   4:11
 Than it is today, I'd say probably a lot less formal, a lot less.
 You know, from a safety safety practitioner you know a lot less professional.
 A lot of safety folks either fell into it or, you know, they they they became.
 Saw a lot of folks maybe were injured and get into the safety business, found a lot of a lot of people I've met over the years, started out in the healthcare, there were paramedics or EMT.
 And and realise that you know they they wanted to help prevent things so they get into safety. But you know, safety years ago was was completely different again. It wasn't formal. We did it. You might as well say because we had to.
 But really, over the years, you can really see the professionalism has has grown and and the use of science and how do you how do we take and use data to to understand where issues are and how do we how do we tackle them.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   5:12
 So where have we seen the biggest changes and improvements?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   5:16
 Would say probably in our understanding of how people work, you know the.
 Again I you know, I mentioned science and there's a lot of folks out there spending a lot of time.
 Delving into kind of the science of safety and when you think about safety, it's it is all about people. So it's it's about the understanding of what makes people tick. Why do they do what they do and and how do we make sure they understand the importance of of what needs to be done and and why it's important to do it. And I think, you know, over the years at that the use of data has has helped us in that because.
 You know, as we we we gather all kinds of data over the years. You know whether it's incident data or whatever it is Hazard IDs and and we now have the ability to take that and understand that a little deeper to make sure we put the right things in place so people don't get hurt.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   6:14
 If you were to take over as a CEO of a, say, a 200 person organisation and we're asked to talk to your staff about your expectations, your philosophy and health and safety as a result of your experience and your background, what would you say to folks?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   6:30
 Yeah, that's that's an interesting question.
 You know, I think I think laying out the expectation that that safety is paramount in everything that you do. You know, nobody ever comes to work and and expects to get hurt or wants to get hurt.
 But you know, it's the decisions that people make every day, whether it's to use a tool that's not, that's not working properly or take a shortcut. So I think, you know, if if I was, if I if I was in that position, you know, I'd I'd make sure the folks understood that the expectation is is that they they think about safety.
 They, you know, they make sure that they have the right tools, they have the right processes, they're properly trained and and, you know, think about what they're doing and more importantly, if it doesn't feel right, don't do it.
 That's, you know, one of the things I've seen over the years is too many folks, you know, things that everybody has a gut feel and and sometimes people will ignore that they'll continue down a a path that maybe they just don't feel comfortable. And then all of sudden bad that and bad happens.
 So I think you know again that that would be my expectation is that you you think about what you're doing, make sure you have the right processes, the right tools and and if something doesn't feel right, stop.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   7:52
 From an employer point of view.
 What sort of changes have you seen relative to health and safety as AS2 employers attitudes about willingness to spend money to set programmes up?
 To to make it a more integral part, say as compared to, say, 3035 years ago, where as you said the you know it was almost appealing. Well something you have to do. So how has the attitude change for employers as well?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   8:22
 Yeah, I think you know, as we as we have evolved over the years, I think people have realised that, you know, safety, safety pays, you know there there there's value in in being safe.
 You know, you look at the, you know, the folks at work safe have done a a great job of communicating that and making sure people understand, you know, and then we all have workers comps premiums.
 But the understanding of what does an accident actually cost?
 You know versus trying to prevent it in the 1st place, you know when you have an accident incident, you can shut down your business for days. You know the you take the shortcut or you try to continue to push through so that you can get the production done. Doesn't really doesn't really work when you you know you end up shutting your business down for a couple of days because you've had a serious incident. So I think over the years, you know, employers have realised that.
 You know safety's not necessarily a cost, it's an investment.
 And and I think you know really that's where folks have have cut their head wrapped around is that if you're investing in safety.
 Ultimately, you're going to be a better a Better Business long term.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   9:35
 How have employees attitudes changed?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   9:39
 Yeah, employees attitudes. You can see a lot of over the years people have.
 People are beginning to realise the same, I think similar to the the the employers, the beginning to realise that, you know nobody wants to get hurt.
 And we've got to make sure that, you know we we're doing the right things out there. We still have some employees that you know, don't they they they take more risks than we want them to. And I and I think you know.
 Over the years I've seen a lot of employees become a little more risk adverse, not taking the risks that they that they would have in the past.
 But it's, you know, there are still those out there that that do have a little higher risk tolerance than than companies would would like and and that's I think the the the combination of employer employee having those conversations about risk and understanding you know I I tell whenever I teach a course.
 One of the things that I would say is, you know.
 Ask ask folks if they understand what why we have policies and procedures. What is a policy and procedure?
 And and really the answer is it's the maximum amount of risk that we want our employees to take when they're doing their job, because everybody has a different risk tolerance and and you know some people will be comfortable with reaching around a guard and and doing something to clean something.
 But the company will set a policy in place that says you're not going to reach around the guard 'cause that's dangerous. You need the lockout. You need to do what you need to do in order to be safe. So I think, you know, over the years you can see.
 I think we're seeing more employees are being a little less risk tolerant than than they were in the past.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   11:29
 To manage an employees.
 And different occasions I've had employers, supervisors ask me, you know, today when we try to manage employees, we have a different generations. We have a you know, of course you've got the generation X&Y and so on.
 Each having their own expectations, even each having their own sort of belief systems. How does a modern manager leader go about to try to work with all those different?
 Mindsets and belief systems.
Darrel Allan Nickerson   12:04
 Yeah, it's. It's an interesting topic and you know we've been dealing with this since the beginning of work. You know, every generation is everybody. Every generation will say that the younger generation is not the same as we are and. And you know, I remember when I started, of course, the generation prior prior to me were were the the Boomers or the, you know, and and I remember hearing some of them saying, oh, this younger generation, they don't know how to work and.
 You know, I think one of the things that's kind of consistent with.
 Doesn't matter which generation you're dealing with, is as a manager, you need to build trust.
 You need to to work with them. Understand what's you know, that that with them philosophy. What's in it for me? You have to understand what's their triggers. What are the things that motivates them to do certain things? And and you need to build that trust that you are looking out for them. Your especially from a safety perspective and and that you're you want to work with them and and I think you know over the years what I've seen again is for the different generations coming through coming through business that.
 The managers who have built their I guess career on integrity and trust I think have have been successful.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   13:20
 Based on your experience and and you've seen a lot of changes in in programme health and safety programmes and approaches and so on over the years. If someone were to ask you what's what, do you think the most crucial or critical elements in in sort of today's world when it comes to having a good health and safety programme, what are the really key points? I mean, there's so many things you could have in a programme, but what are the most crucial ones?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   13:48
 Yeah, I think you know that that that's, that's again another interesting question pearlie I think.
 You know, there's you. You've got a hit bill and we talked about the trust earlier. You've got to have the trust with the employees. But I think from a programme perspective, you know, having a good, solid risk management process is is kind of vital and and, you know, having the folks understand that, you know, we need to identify the hazards before they hurt people.
 And we have to have a good process to not only identify them, but understand them and and figure out what it is we need to do to reduce that risk. I spend a lot of my time in the last few years talking about risk at the different conferences and and and I think truly it's it's one of those areas where we've got to get better at and and that's.
 Probably foundational to a business being success being successful.
 Is having a good solid understanding of risk management and having it having it in place in their business.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   14:56
 So your thoughts on one one trend I've seen over the last two to three years is an influx of of new ideas, new mindsets, new people into the field of health and safety. Are you seeing the same thing?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   15:10
 Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know it and I think that's that's a good thing. You know, we have to evolve.
 You know.
 Let's take Heinrich's triangle. You know, most people understand Heinrich. We've taught we've been taught it for years.
 Back in 2920, ten the folks at BST doctor Tom Krause put out a paper I remember in professional safety journal and basically said Heinrich was wrong and safety people lost their mind because, you know, since the 40s, we've been believing in this and and once you.
 Had the study you understood? He wasn't saying that the whole concept was wrong, but there's a, you know, when you look at that and just for those maybe that I'm, I'm sure everybody understands Heinrich Triangle. But you know the premise is you, you have near misses and and events at the bottom. And as you work on those, you will lessen the number of of incidents at the top.
 But you know what they proposed was that every type of incident had a.
 Percentage that could be a serious injury fatality and really their their discussion was we had can't treat every incident the same. We have to look at serious injury fatalities differently because they they're not the same and and we've got to focus on those. So I I think you know we as safety people for many many years we we kind of stayed with what we knew and and but you know over the years we've seen a lot of change coming in.
 I think you had doctor Matthew Hollowell on on a podcast here recently.
 Him and his folks at the University of Colorado in Boulder and the construction Safety Reliance Association that they're doing some fantastic work and they're taking science and applying it to safety in a way that we've never seen before. And I think because we have so much data.
 And we've got a lot of smart people. They're now beginning to take some of that. Some of the work they're doing on the topic of energy is, is really interesting stuff. I've used it in some of my some of my discussions and and if any of you haven't, haven't had the opportunity to go.
 You know, look at that stuff. I would encourage you to to go into his work. Just Google doctor Matthew Hollowell and and take a look at some of the stuff he's done there doing some really cool stuff. But it's it's changing our mindset. It's, you know, it's again, it's not, it's not in the prevention kind of mindset that we've had for many, many years. It's it's looking a little deeper and understanding. How do we set our systems up.
 So that our folks don't fail and you know the the folks like.
 That have got into the organisational performance and and.
 Those you know the getting into that, you know, human, we know humans are fallible and and those type of conversations have changed the way we think about safety and you know, one of the things as a safety person you've always got to continue to learn because there's always going to be new stuff coming and we can't rely on the the the old adage the old adage what got us here is not going to get us there.
 You know, we've got to continually be educating ourself because safety is ever evolving and lots of changes going on.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   18:33
 So one one question to go back to the original question I asked you, I see in the Saint John area, I follow you on LinkedIn and I follow a number of other people as well.
 We seem to be having a new generation of health and safety professionals as well. You would like to sort of comment on that, what you're seeing as far as new P in addition, you know you talked a lot about new ideas and concepts, but we also seem to be having a really nice influx of new people.
Darrel Allan Nickerson   18:59
 Absolutely. You know it, it's, it's fantastic to see the.
 I guess I won't call it a renewed because I think it's a it's a more of an interest in safety. We've today, you know, some of us fell into it. You know, we we kind of walked into it and a lot of folks over the years they they became again they either were an injured worker or they had a motivation to get into safety. But we have today we have folks who are are getting into safety as their first career a lot of people get into it as their second or third career.
 And that, you know, that is just fantastic to see. We've got a lot more females in the business. You know again this is you look back over the years traditionally has been a male dominated.
 Business and and you know fantastic. The the that we're adding more females to the mix. I know you've had a number of them on the on the podcast.
 We.
 We've got a really good network in New Brunswick of Health and safety professionals and you know, we try to get together every once in a while.
 And you know, one of the things that I've always, I guess always promoted is how do we mentor the younger folks coming in to the business? How do we get more safety, people who want to be in the business and you know, with the education programmes we have out there today, some folks are coming into it early in their career and and they're and they're being successful and.
 And you know, I think that's that's really encouraging, especially as I'm kind of on the toward the end of my career.
 You know, I I I think it's absolutely fantastic that we've got a lot of younger folks that are kind of that are seeing safety as a profession and want to be part of it.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   20:51
 To go back to the Doctor Hallowell, just for a second. Where do you think AI is headed? From a point of view as far as being helpful to health and safety practitioners like yourself?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   21:04
 Yeah, that's that's a great question. Pearlie AI is such an interesting field and I spent a few years kind of ignoring it, kind of, you know, thinking well, you know, I'm I'm maybe getting too old for this, but you know, as I as I as I spend more time looking at AI and talking to folks, you know, it is where where the the the world is going and the safety people we have to embrace it. I've talked to some safety folks that say oh you know.
 Yes, I can go into, you know, one of the AI searches and I can say.
 Produce me a safety manual or a let's say, a fall arrest programme based on New Brunswick regulations.
 For a company that.
 You know, works on home building and it will produce you something.
 Part of AII mean as the technology gets better, it's it's starting to get better, but you still need somebody to look at it to make sure that that information is right. You still have to have somebody who understands.
 That the processes are actually true. A little story. I was in Denver last year, the American Society Safety Professionals Conference and Doctor Marilyn Huebner from Australia was giving a a talk on AI. She's a safety professional, been around for many years and I went to her talk on AI and she uses what what she said she uses AI for is the.
 Kind of the menial task or the again, she said. If somebody gassed her for a training programme, she'll ask AI to to produce her safety programme, but she still has to review it. It might get you 80% of the way there, but you've still got to get to review it. One of the stories she told was, you know, you have to be careful with AI because.
 If you don't have the knowledge of what you're asking it, you may end up with stuff that's not right, so she she actually said she asked her AI assistant. She called it Diego, she said. Diego, write me a paper on this topic with this and and provide references and she she said she got the paper and she read it and she said it wasn't bad.
 But she said she looked at the references and they didn't make sense to her. So she went on the computer and couldn't find any of the references. So she said she went back to her AI and said Diego, did you make these references up?
 And they came back and said yes, I did.
 That's where AI you know, as we evolve it, you've got to be very, very specific. All she asked for were references.
 So the AI gave her references. It wasn't referencing the material, it was just showing a reference. So I think as we evolve with AI, we have to be cognizant of what it can do, but also.
 Be prepared to make sure we've got somebody who understands it to review it, to make sure that it's right.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   24:02
 So going forward, health and safety, do you think we're going in the right direction and where do you think we are going?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   24:11
 Yeah, you know what? I'm. I'm encouraged. You know, as I see more education programmes available, younger folks getting into the business, you know, I I'm I'm very hopeful of of the safety profession.
 I've I've had the opportunity to to be on the board with the Bcrsp and the work that they're doing to encourage the profession and and make sure that the profession is set up for the future and making sure that folks have the education that they need.
 To be able to be the professionals that our businesses need to be able to ensure that that we're doing the right thing for safety. But I think overall I'm really encouraged by by the direction we're going in and and I think you know as we again as we evolve over time.
 Spending the time on risk and and understanding how people work and and how do we make sure that they understand? How do you influence them to to make the right decisions every day?
 Is really where where we've got to get to.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   25:21
 Now you're also involved in some provincial here in New Brunswick, education institutions that are also have done a lot to better educate our provinces leaders in health and safety. We'd like to comment on that.
Darrel Allan Nickerson   25:35
 Yeah, I thank you, Burley. I've I've been affiliated with the with UN BS, continuing Education Learning Department. I currently am an instructor for three programmes with the Diploma in Occupational Health and Safety.
 Currently working on a risk certificate programme for them, so that will be launching sometime in in the next couple months. So yeah, I've I've I guess I've always looked at, you know, being a A lifelong.
 Learner and it's my opportunity now to give back.
 And and I, you know, I'm going to start doing some work with with safety services here soon.
 That you know, again, being able to provide some of the knowledge that I have back to folks so that they can learn and and grow in their careers.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   26:30
 If you were in a position to make any changes that you wanted.
 What would you change in the Brunswick's health and safety environment, be IT legislation, whatever that you think would would?
 Make us a stronger province when it comes to health and safety.
Darrel Allan Nickerson   26:49
 That's a really interesting question.
 You know, I think.
 We're on the right path. We've got the right, you know the right motivation. We've got some great folks at work safe New Brunswick, who, you know, have we made some changes in legislation that have been that have been needed for years.
 And I think you know, those are are beginning to take hold and and and are going to help us drive you know again this this concept of being in under budget being the safest province.
 But I I know we can't take our foot off the gas. You know, we've got to continually.
 Focus on the decisions that folks make every day. We've got to, you know, we are as employers. We need to have the best programmes in place. We have to have the right motivations in place to make sure that those, you know, the programmes and policies, procedures, all the things that we put in place as supervisors, they need to make sure that they are, you know, enforcing those. And as employees we've to be following those. And I think you know as we.
 As we evolve, one of the things that I you know I would think would need to change is.
 And I've I've talked a lot about risk and and again, people know me. That's that's kind of been passion of mine. I think we really need to be more specific in our whether it's legislation or in our purpose.
 About our risk processes, you know again having solid hazard ID programmes where folks are participating, identifying hazards, fixing them and not just putting band aids on them, but actually truly coming up with what are the risk treatments, treatments or what are the.
 The corrective actions that we need to put in place and then following up to make sure that they they work, a lot of the times, what I see is, you know, we'll find something, we'll fix it, but we don't have a control plan. We don't have a way to go back and make sure that that's actually working and then we find out after something else has happened that the corrective action we put in didn't work. So.
 I think you know having a solid foundation of risk management, whether it's through legislation or through.
 Continuing education, but getting that focus on how do we find the things that can hurt people? How do we make sure that they can't hurt people? I think is is going to be crucial.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   29:18
 So after 35 years of dedication to the profession, what's next for Daryl when it comes to personal and professional activities?
Darrel Allan Nickerson   29:29
 Yeah, you know, I-35 years, it's hard to say that word out loud. It's been it's it seems like it's gone by in a in a blink. But you know, I I anybody who knows me, I'm always involved. I've I'm always kind of on the go and I don't think I could slow down. Somebody once called me a shark and not because I'm nasty, but because I think if I slow down, I'd I might die.
 I you know, I'm going to continue in the profession. So my wife and I are going to take some time. My wife is also retired.
 Very shortly, we're actually leaving for a trip. We're going to be spending some time in Florida and some time in the South of Spain and kind of decompressing. And then when I get back we, you know, I've I I have actually set up my own business. I'm now a A consultant and a trainer. And and I have, you know, I've been talking to some folks about doing some work with them and.
 I you know, I don't want to work every day. I'm not going to be a full time safety person. But you know, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to do.
 I'm going to look at the opportunities I have to help people like I have over the last 35 years and if I can, if I can provide some value to some folks, then I'll try to do that. But you know, it's one of those things you it's kind of in your blood and you can't. You can't let it go. So I'm going to be around for for a while I hope.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   30:56
 Well, look, Darrell, thank you very much for for your efforts and and work in health and safety certainly greatly appreciated. That's why in essence you were given the award at their workshape annual conference for your achievements. Have a nice retirement vacation, give yourself a nice chance to to see some of the world and we're certainly looking forward to staying in touch with you.
 As you return from those vacations and.
 I'm sure we're gonna see you around, so to speak in in different aspects of health and safety.
Darrel Allan Nickerson   31:30
 Thank you very much pearlie.
Perley Brewer (Guest)   31:32
 For folks listening to today's podcast, stay safe. We will see you next week.

 | 
 |   |